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1 year ago ::
Apr 17, 2012 - 6:23PM
#261
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2012
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....Keeping HP abstract is the exact OPPOSITE of tying it down to one theory.
I was thinking of abstraction as one theory, and actual damage as another theory. I feel like the books should allow both to be just as plausible. I think 4e healing surges make it difficult to have hp be purely physical damage, but as I said, not impossible. You just have to assume people (or maybe just heroes) can regenerate like trolls, or some contrived magical explanation.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 17, 2012 - 6:47PM
#262
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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But insisting "actual damage" is a seperate from "abstract damage" is silly because abstract damage INCLUDES actual damage. And how does being able to heal only as much as your body can take LESS believeable then "bag of CLW, I HEALED FOREVER"?
I am completely dead serious in saying I do not udnerstand at all what point you're trying to make at the moment.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 17, 2012 - 7:12PM
#263
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2012
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But insisting "actual damage" is a seperate from "abstract damage" is silly because abstract damage INCLUDES actual damage. And how does being able to heal only as much as your body can take LESS believeable then "bag of CLW, I HEALED FOREVER"?
I am completely dead serious in saying I do not udnerstand at all what point you're trying to make at the moment.
Healing surges make it very difficult for damage to be actual damage. Yes, abstract damage includes physical damage. But the presence of healing surges makes it nigh impossible for damage to be just physical damage. So it's an exclusionary mechanic. It doesn't allow for both sides.
Martial classes being able to heal their wounds after taking a break is much less believable to me than a magic item of healing. Does a magic item of healing really seem unbelievable?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 17, 2012 - 7:26PM
#264
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Healing surges make it very difficult for damage to be actual damage.
If hp are acutal damage, then fighters are immediately superhuman because a 1st level fighter with 14 hp can seurvive, without any appreciable loss of combat, three arrows shot at close range. And if we accept fighters as superhuman, then I don't see the problem of them having fat-healing too. You've already signed off on everybody meing magical.
Martial classes being able to heal their wounds after taking a break is much less believable to me than a magic item of healing. Does a magic item of healing really seem unbelievable?
Given how hp work, it has its own problems. For instance, how come the potion of cure light wounds, which brought my wizard to full healed from unconsciousness when he started out adventuring, barely heals anything now that he's an archwizard? Why does his increase in power make healing potions less effective?!
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1 year ago ::
Apr 17, 2012 - 7:38PM
#265
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2012
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Healing surges make it very difficult for damage to be actual damage.
If hp are acutal damage, then fighters are immediately superhuman because a 1st level fighter with 14 hp can seurvive, without any appreciable loss of combat, three arrows shot at close range. And if we accept fighters as superhuman, then I don't see the problem of them having fat-healing too. You've already signed off on everybody meing magical.
Martial classes being able to heal their wounds after taking a break is much less believable to me than a magic item of healing. Does a magic item of healing really seem unbelievable?
Given how hp work, it has its own problems. For instance, how come the potion of cure light wounds, which brought my wizard to full healed from unconsciousness when he started out adventuring, barely heals anything now that he's an archwizard? Why does his increase in power make healing potions less effective?!
For the first part, you may have a point. But then, I do picture most fighters being able to survive at least one arrow without going down. And it does depend on how they roll on damage. If they rolled an 8 both times, they could knock him down in two. It seems you're talking about 3rd ed, (4e is even worse at 1st level) so this fighter must have an 18 con. He is the toughest kind of guy out there. 1st level, but almost the toughest as far as 1st levels go. I dont know, it is pretty hard to make game mechanics perfectly realistic, and I wouldn't want to try.
For the second part, I don't know, the same reason why potions heal less of the abstract hit points' luck/skill/endurance. Again, I guess it's more of a game mechanic and it is pretty tough to explain. It doesn't make much sense whether hit points are abstract or not.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 17, 2012 - 9:56PM
#266
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It would be nice to not take someones example so literal. I don't know, think of it as abstract. 
I tried, but he kept specifying.
A barbarian who wears a loin cloth and some boots fights the drakes. He takes damage and lowers to 5 hp. He spends the next hour cleaning the blood off and healing. Does he have bite marks on the areas that were exposed? What if he only took 10 damage. What if he were knocked unconscious? Does any of that matter since HP's are "abstract?" That's all the OP is asking.
How was the damage narrated? When HPs are abstract, narration determines appearance, which gives all of us the flexibility to describe combat however we want instead of being forced into a system that says a 10% HP hit strikes in location X while a 25% HP hit strikes in location Y. Even when these rules don't exist in the RAW, so long as HP loss is mandated to be physical damage on every hit, they will be made up on the fly to justify the proportional HP loss.
I understand. So you have 7 players in a party. They go through three encounters. Each encounter is 4 rounds. Each encounter entails combat with a minimum of 8 opponents. You, the all knowing DM, narrate each swing: 84 for players and 96 for opponents. And then you memorize it all. But wait, you break tell next week. They run into the drake's owner. You can still answer that question? If so, please understand that not all of us have top 2% short and long term memories.
I'm not trying to be combative, but to say that it's all on the narrative is a bit of a cop out and also a bit crazy. What about players who narrate their own swings, which happens quite often and is encouraged. So when the 12 year old at the Encounters table details his great axe swing as knocking the sjield aside and cutting deeply into the orcs arm. Yet, he does 8 damage. Are we supposed to correct him every time? Or even the player who just likes to toss around hyperbole for the heck of it. Should we suddenly discount his antics (even though they're fun and entertaining) because he's not accurate.
No. The mechanic should align with narration.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 17, 2012 - 11:42PM
#267
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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I understand. So you have 7 players in a party. They go through three encounters. Each encounter is 4 rounds. Each encounter entails combat with a minimum of 8 opponents. You, the all knowing DM, narrate each swing: 84 for players and 96 for opponents. And then you memorize it all. But wait, you break tell next week. They run into the drake's owner. You can still answer that question? If so, please understand that not all of us have top 2% short and long term memories.
No one is saying that anyone needs to have a superhuman memory. But "Dang, I forgot the specifics of that fight." is way different than "That fight had no specifics, becasue why didn't the mechanics give them to me?"
I'm not trying to be combative, but to say that it's all on the narrative is a bit of a cop out and also a bit crazy. What about players who narrate their own swings, which happens quite often and is encouraged. So when the 12 year old at the Encounters table details his great axe swing as knocking the sjield aside and cutting deeply into the orcs arm. Yet, he does 8 damage. Are we supposed to correct him every time? Or even the player who just likes to toss around hyperbole for the heck of it. Should we suddenly discount his antics (even though they're fun and entertaining) because he's not accurate.
No. The mechanic should align with narration.
We let him. We let the kid narrate to his heart's content, barring extreme cases, like him saying he takes off the orc's head with a 2hp hit when it has 10 left. You're not supposed to correct him because there's nothing to correct. The mechanics already align with him, by being abstract enough that his narration fits within them. That's the whole damn point of them being so abstract. It makes it damn hard to be wrong when you narrate.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool. | Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner | |
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 18, 2012 - 3:19AM
#268
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Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2011
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Why not? Because that would involve fighters being *gasp* above average!
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Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important.
There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level.
Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition. You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 18, 2012 - 5:43AM
#269
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I do picture most fighters being able to survive at least one arrow without going down.
An arrow does 1d6 damage, average 3.5 damage. A fighter starting with a 14 Con (+2) has 12 hp. That's not outrageous Constitution for a fighter. He can expect to survive three arrows shot at close range (11 hp). He will have no appreciable loss of fighting prowess. He has three arrows sticking out of various parts of his body. That is a required result of hp being purely physical damage. (And, on average, he can survive another two arrows with every level he gains!) I really don't see why this presents no problems to you, but allowing him to fast-heal that damage when he yanks the arrows out of his torso in between combat does. You've already signed off on him being a magical creature.
Which is fine. If you want to make hp purely physical, then do so. But when you complain that healing surges are a particular problem with purely physical hp, I just shake my head. They are no more a problem with purely physical hp than damage is.
And it does depend on how they roll on damage. If they rolled an 8 both times, they could knock him down in two.
And if they rolled a 1, he could take 11 arrows.
For the second part, I don't know, the same reason why potions heal less of the abstract hit points' luck/skill/endurance. Again, I guess it's more of a game mechanic and it is pretty tough to explain. It doesn't make much sense whether hit points are abstract or not.
Actually, it's much easier to explain with abstract hp. You see, abstract hp contain things like luck and favor and karma. When you are low level, and not very experienced, you rely a lot more on luck and favor to survive. As you get higher level (and gain more abstract hp), you rely less on luck and karma and more and more on skill to avoid damage. And that's good, because luck isn't as useful against the things you're now fighting at higher levels. A potion of cure light wounds will heal those last few points of actual physical damage, but it also gives you a magical boost to luck, favor, and karma, making you more likely to avoid damage. At higher levels, you're not relying on luck, favor, and karma quite as much, so the cure light wounds potion isn't as effective. You need stronger magic. You need a lot more luck to survive a fight with a frost giant than you did when you faced down an orc.
With purely physical hp, I can't use that explanation. Instead, I'm stuck deciding that as my wizard's skin gets preternaturally tougher with experience, he also gains some sort of resistance to the effects of healing potions and magic. Yet, he does not gain resistance to other types of beneficial magic. The potion of invisibility does not suddenly make him merely translucent. The potion of heroism still gives him the same benefits as before. Only healing potions and healing spells (or any mechanic tied to hp) gets less effective as he becomes more experienced. It's almost as if ignorance really is bliss!
(Note that healing potions that activate your healing surges don't have this problem because healing surges scale with level.)
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1 year ago ::
Apr 18, 2012 - 5:49AM
#270
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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If you want to make hp purely physical, then do so. But when you complain that healign usurges are a particular problem with pruely physical hp, I just shake my head. They are no more a problem with purely physical hp than damage is.
This is how I feel as well. The thread seems to have gone like this:
Original Question: why aren't HP purely physical?
Answer: because in D&D they represent much more than that. Lots of evidence shown, and examples given as to why pure physical hp wouldn't work well.
Response: Yes, but that is because you restrict your interpretation of the game. If instead you redefine what it means to be a person in D&D and say that everyone can gain superhero levels of toughness, then hp being purely physical works fine.
Counter-response: Ok, sure. If you want to play in a superhero style game where everyone goes around with dozens of arrows sticking out of them, hp can be purely physical. In this case, there is no reason why martial healing can't be a part of the game too.
Response: But martial healing doesn't fit with my view of the game.
Do you see what you are doing here, Frostball? In response to the points about why hp shouldn't be purely physical, you say that we just need to change our view of the game. But then in regards to martial healing you say that you can't have it because it runs counter to your view of the game.
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