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Whatever ideology anyone adheres to, they're certainly welcome to discard any element of the system they wish to.

In my experience, they sometimes assert that the elements they didn't like never existed, or some variant of that statement, and I get a little miffed.

I see this cycle happen more than I'd like, on various boards.

1. Make assertion that a particular version of D&D doesn't have some game element X. Any version is fair game.
2. When shown element X, claim it's not 'really' element X.
3. When corrected, assert that no one used it at all.
4. When corrected, assert that no one used it as written.
5. When corrected, assert that no one who used it enjoyed it.
6. When corrected, assert that anyone who enjoyed it is a bad gamer in an oblique way so as to avoid getting in trouble.
7. Wait a week.
8. Make same assertion.

Repeat.

4e had no science at all and it is arguably the most balanced.  

I think maybe we are talking about different things.  When I say science, I mean some underlying magic philosophy that influences the writing of the rules.  Balance is another thing.  You could have a science and be balanced or not balanced.  They are unrelated subjects. 

It's pretty much a paraphrase, Garthanos - it's half a page of text, so I wouldn't feel right quoting the whole thing. There are a couple minor changes I make, but nothing huge. It is, as I say 'pretty much' by the book.

High points, I can do.

All magic and cleric spells are similar in that the word sounds, when combined into whatever patterns are applicable, are charged with energy from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. When uttered, these sounds cause the release of this energy, which in turn triggers a set reaction. The release of the energy contained in these words is what causes the spell to be forgotten or the writing to disappear from the surface upon which it is written.

I changed that instead of always simply positive or negative energy, it's a little more specific to the spell being cast. A fireball reaches the elemental plane of Fire, for instance. This paragraph, however, (I conjecture) is the metaphysical justification for 'evil' spells turning you evil. When you memorize a spell with the 'evil' descriptor, it makes sense that some of that negative energy affects your mind.

Here's another paragraph.

Many spells also require somatic motions in conjunction with words. The spoken words trigger the release of the magical energy, and the hand movements are usually required in order to control and specify the direction, target, area, etc., of the spell effects. When spell energy is released, it usually flows to the Prime Material from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. To replace it, something must flow back in reverse. The dissolution and destruction of material components provides the energy that balances out this flow, through the principle of similarity. Sometimes this destruction is very slow, as is the case with druids‘ mistletoe. Those spells without apparent material components are actually utilizing the air exhaled by the magic-user in the utterance of the spell.

I conjecture that spells without material or verbal components use a tiny bit of air in the lungs. Also, again I widen the net of possible planes for the energy to come from, using 'usually' as my justification. I extrapolate from the mistletoe reference to expand it to holy symbols, etc. These foci are generally much more invested with 'similarity', so it requires only a few atoms of material from them (or so I reason), as opposed to, for instance, the sulfur and bat guano that is completely destroyed when a fireball goes off - because the sulfur and bat guano just isn't as metaphysically powerful as, say, a gold holy symbol ritually prepared, or mistletoe properly harvested.

In AD&D, the time to prepare spells is generally quite a bit longer - what you're doing is gathering that positive or negative 'spark' that initializes the inflow of energy from an outer plane. It takes a wizard 15 minutes to memorize each spell level - a single 9th level spell takes 45 minutes to memorize. and, of course, he's not actually memorizing the spell - going over the 'spell' in his book is actually a magic ritual, that gathers that little spark of positive/negative energy keyed to the outer plane that will eventually provide the energy for the spell. Making a scroll is a ritual in which that bit of energy is bound up in special ink and paper (thus the cost of the scroll and the time and energy it takes to scribe it). Reading the scroll releases the trigger, destroys the ink, and starts the spell. It's why you need 'read magic' to actually learn a spell from the scroll - because it's not the same thing that goes into a spellbook. The 'spell' in the spellbook is a special set of instructions, modified to fit a specific caster's thoughts, for gathering just the right spark to cast the real spell.

Apr 22, 2012 -- 9:24PM, Kaldric wrote:

Those spells without apparent material components are actually utilizing the air exhaled by the magic-user in the utterance of the spell.

 

I conjecture that spells without material or verbal components use a tiny bit of air in the lungs. 

Perhaps I can help a bit (as that sounds quite really silly) and somebody didnt know about the priniciple of communication. Communication = Control most every magic ritual is therefore hinged around a vehicle of communication, ranging from language to written text to eye contact. At minimum the rationale of burning through the mind of the caster could justify a material componentless ritual if the source of power is paradimensional and your caster was insane enough to take it on the chin like that (Knowledge is power and knowledge intertwines, supports and mingles is why yea old amnesiac model annoys most heavily)... Or they could have extended there system to allow expenditure of hit points during the ritual casting resulting in a reason why the casters have fewer hit points (4e has some rituals which spend healing surges and hit points can be expent by bloodmages but I think it would be more interesting if broadly available) they could even justify clerics having more hitpoints because there power control is more benign and in tune with mortal bodies and minds.

(I was saying the idea of the vocalization acting as a surregate channel was pretty much unnecessary and that the value of the word in magic is well establish for other reasons)

Apr 22, 2012 -- 9:56PM, Kaldric wrote:

Garthanos: One of the paragraphs I didn't quote says that the energy to actually implement the spell - the stuff that normally comes from the outer plane in response to the tiny bit of trigger energy released by spell
 

The expenditure I was talking about is for acting as channel for the extra planar power... not necessarily replacing the extraplanar power... it can also be seen as a leverage expenditure for local magical energies (druidic and elemental sources) or as using personal mystic energies for psychic effects which are generallly more controlled and less hazardous too.... so no a psychic or mystic effect doesnt have to involve other planar sources just because its level 4 or something but perhaps it narrows the nature of the effects.. (empathy, telepathy etc)

 I would say spending hit points to empower spell craft, given that hit points as luck can also make this so that it bends that around mechanically to represent the principle of "thrice fold returns" which is also known as .... "as you sew so shall ye reap" . The game Mage the assention used a tally of paradox... which would be a virtually ideal mechanical representative but this is ok. Having serious backlash as a potential flavor for magic might be interesting as well.