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Switch to Forum Live View Legends & Lore: D&D Next Design Considerations
1 year ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 6:37PM #1
crazy_monkey
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"I'd like to share with you a draft of the earliest documents I put together to help shape the new iteration of D&D. I distributed this document to the D&D team about a year ago. It lays out the case for the basic approach we should take with the RPG. It's not long, but I felt that if I had to write a convoluted document to make my case, it wasn't a case worth making."


Legends & Lore: D&D Next Design Considerations

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 7:02PM #2
Tevish_Szat
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Fascinating, really.  It's nice to see where this all began, and I agree with their stated goals.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 7:07PM #3
Warrant
Date Joined: Oct 4, 2010
Posts: 1,933
I agree as well. It is super refreshing to see the unification ideals postulated by the designers. I hope D&D next can balance the playstyle pendulumm across all axis without sacrificing fun factor, or making the game too symmetrical.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard

con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb
1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic.

it?"  -anon

"Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it."
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 7:39PM #4
Resurrection_Man
Date Joined: Jun 7, 2011
Posts: 9,530
Nothing new.
Resident Socialist and Undying Troublemaker
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 8:02PM #5
MechaPilot
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2007
Posts: 10,065
I was particularly enthused by goals #2 and #3.  I like goal #2 (fun fact: originally typed this without "goal" then decided I needed to add it so people wouldn't read it as me saying "I like #2") because it appeals to my desire for all of us to be able to enjoy playing the kind of games that we want, and because it doesn't seem to endorse the "you're having wrongbadfun" philosophy.  I like #3 because I've been in situations where I'm part of a group that consists of a DM and only myself or one other player; depending on where you live and how social you are, it can be hard to get the full DM and 4 player group together.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad Show

Mar 4, 2012 -- 5:04PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Warrant wrote:

so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.


Really?  So it goes something like this?

Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well."  Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh.  Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."


taking an argument too far Show

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:27PM, Frostball wrote:

So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion?  Here's a scenario.  The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land.  They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges.  Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.

Part 1:  I didn't describe any of the hits.  What does he see?

Part 2:  Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up.  What does he see?



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1 year ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 11:35PM #6
TheMormegil
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 2,064
This is the kind of thing I hope they will include in the manuals too. Short pieces of information concerning the design goals: "this stuff works like this; this module is intended for that; this is why these spells have a 3 minutes casting time"...
Of course, it has been confirmed by the PAX East seminar, so I'm happy. :D

The goals are sound. I hope they really make it. 
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.


Ideas for 5E
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 12:48AM #7
LexBloodSpirit
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2007
Posts: 21
"In other words, if the math works but the game doesn't feel like D&D, we've failed. If the system is sound, but it can't replicate D&D's classic adventures or seamlessly support any of D&D's settings, it isn't the right system for D&D."

This, for me, is a great statement from them. I hope this means that, with only a little tweaking, I can pull out my old Spelljammer books,
and seamlessly use the 5th Edition Corebooks to run a Spelljammer campaign.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 1:04AM #8
Pashalik_Mons
Date Joined: May 17, 2009
Posts: 7,102
The goals sound good.  They won't be enough, though, to make a good game.  I do hope there are other goals in play that Mr. Mearls simply isn't telling us here.  Still, I hope they pull it off.

Though I must say, my inner cynic reads this:

"In other words, if the math works but the game doesn't feel like D&D, we've failed. If the system is sound, but it can't replicate D&D's classic adventures or seamlessly support any of D&D's settings, it isn't the right system for D&D."

and hears:

"Start getting used to the idea that Next won't be balanced to any meaningful degree."  

which in turn sounds a lot like:

"Start getting used to homebrewing 4e material, or maybe get off your can and start making your own system."
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven.  You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 1:16AM #9
TheMormegil
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 2,064

Apr 10, 2012 -- 1:04AM, Pashalik_Mons wrote:

The goals sound good.  They won't be enough, though, to make a good game.  I do hope there are other goals in play that Mr. Mearls simply isn't telling us here.  Still, I hope they pull it off.

Though I must say, my inner cynic reads this:

"In other words, if the math works but the game doesn't feel like D&D, we've failed. If the system is sound, but it can't replicate D&D's classic adventures or seamlessly support any of D&D's settings, it isn't the right system for D&D."

and hears:

"Start getting used to the idea that Next won't be balanced to any meaningful degree."  

which in turn sounds a lot like:

"Start getting used to homebrewing 4e material, or maybe get off your can and start making your own system."




Yeah, but the rest of the talk puts it in a better light. Especially the part where they talk of the quadratic wizard linear fighter issue: I seriously doubt they'd go through loops to solve that specific issue only to run into, say, quadratic assassin, linear rogue issue.

(Besides, isn't everyone already working on their own system? ) 

Are you interested in an online 4E game on Sunday? Contact me with a PM!

Spoiler: Show
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.


Ideas for 5E
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 4:59AM #10
tsukimasu
Date Joined: Mar 15, 2010
Posts: 153
Initial thought - hooray! I've wanted to see WotC state these core goals clearly for a while. I wish they'd posted these design goals along with the announcement of the D&Dnext project back in January - I think it'd have been helpful for everyone to know what was driving the new edition; instead, we've had a series of 'hey, wouldn't it be cool if...' L&L articles that have been harder to understand without a knowledge of the common driving force.

Obviously there's no mention of why WotC need a new version, but that's reasonably easy to guess. The release of Essentials confused the heck out of me as a 4e player (am I supposed to switch to it? Am I supposed to use it alongside 4e? Am I supposed to ignore it?) and the local hobby store owner told me that availability for the Essentials books was patchy, meaning that people couldn't get the Essentials books they needed to play. His group experienced scaling problems with 4e and switched to Pathfinder with a modified AC / agility / dodge system - and now the store features Pathfinder merchandise more prominently than D&D materials.

Goals 1 and 2 sound great to me, and I can identify with parts of goal 3, but the 'D&D in an hour' notion unsettles me. Allowing for smaller groups is good (some of the best RPG sessions I've played have been when there's been a DM and 2 players) and being able to increase speed of play over 4e would definitely be useful. However, I've generally found 'one-shot' adventures in other systems to be disappointing, mainly due to a reliance on very light plot and railroading to speed things along. Those one-shot adventures tended to be based on a four-hour session, too, so personally I can't at this point imagine a one-hour adventure to be satisfying.

I can understand that they want to lower the barrier to entry, but I would have thought that the (excellent) D&D board games that exist already serve that purpose. Regarding 1-hour adventures and 50-hour campaigns, I'd say that brings it in under computer-based RPGs such as Skyrim or D&D Online, which I'd find unusual.

Regarding the mechanics & maths, I just hope they're able to create a game with the consistency of 4e (meaning that the key rules are boiled down and defined once, rather like the programming philosophy of Don't Repeat Yourself) - there was definitely less rulebook-scuffling with our 4e games until we started hitting character sheet powers that were more ambiguous. Comparing the 4e books to Call of Cthulhu / Dark Heresy, I found them much easier to grasp and understand. I sincerely hope that adding the modular / optional rules system doesn't impact 5e's clarity.

Finally, I'd like to see a couple more goals added:

  • Reunification through Education - I think WotC could do more to help players of different styles understand how others play (see the D&D University link in my sig)
  • Reunification through Communication - I don't think WotC have mastered this yet, although it's clear that the Q&A panels / seminars seem to have the greatest positive effect, so I'd like to see more of those, and not just at gaming conferences. Internet forums skew the direction of conversations because of the way the most recently updated thread bubbles to the top and therefore gets most attention; divisive threads encourage quick black/white responses and therefore self propagate. However, the fact that Mike Mearls posted this design document is promising - I hope to see more of these in the future.
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