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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 9:47AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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This is supposed to be a social system that doesn't suck. It is still in the clouds and would need mechanics to back it up, but I believe the framework is good. It tries to represent the way social interactions usually work, while keeping an eye to compatibility with social skills and abilities. Of course, I envision this as a module.
*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°* SOCIAL RULES SYNOPSIS *°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°*°* A quick rundown on social rules. NON-PLAYING CHARACTERS The participants of a social encounter are players and non-playing characters. Each non-playing character has a motivation and some objectives. Non-playing characters are handled by the Master, and can be influenced in various ways. MOTIVATIONS Each non-playing character has a list of motivations. These are the things that are particularly important for the character, the basic reasons he has to do whatever he does. Players can learn these motivations in various ways, or guess them from the actions of that character. High level characters may be able to change the motivations of a non-playing character with powerful enough means. >>> Appealing to a Motivation A player may appeal to one of the motivations of a character in order to obtain an objective. Appealing to a motivation requires making an argument or other form of social interaction and a skill check to influence the behavior of that character. Appealing correctly to a motivation grants a +5 bonus to the skill check. You can appeal to a guessed motivation, but if you guess wrongly the appeal has no effect. If your argument is in conflict with the character's motivations, you cannot influence his behavior this way and you also are at a disadvantage in future interactions. OBJECTIVES Each non-playing character has a list of objectives. These are things that character wants, based on his motivations. They might include any number of things. Players can learn these objectives in various ways, or guess them from the motivations of that character. Each objective has a Bargain Value, which represents how much that objective is worth for that character. Some abilities can influence objectives. A social situation also has a list of objectives the players want to obtain. These objectives have a Bargain Value too, which represents how difficult it is to obtain such objectives. >>> Starting Behavior and Influence Each character has a starting behavior that represents the initial attitude towards the players. This behavior is, in game terms, a rank (either positive or negative). If the rank is negative, it is effectively another objective in the social challenge with a Bargain Value equal to the rank's value: in order to influence that character's behavior for other objectives or trade other objectives with him you need to overcome the initial negative attitude. If the rank is positive, it acts as an objective with a Bargain Value equal to the rank's value that you can trade with the character: you can use the positive attitude this character has as leverage to obtain other objectives. Influencing the behavior of a character is possible by appealing to his motivations. The behavior of a character is not reset after the situation ends (you are not allowed to ask infinite favors from a friend). External events can influence the behavior of a character. >>> Trading Objectives A player (or a non-playing character) may offer a trade of favors to a non-playing character, accomplishing one of their objectives in exchange for having them accomplish one of their own objectives. Non-playing characters accept only equal or favorable bargains (they will accept if the Bargain Value of their objective is equal or greater than the Bargain Value of the objective they grant). You can pay part of an objective with the behavior rank of a character: this means that you can trade an objective with a Bargain Value 3 for an objective with a Bargain Value 5 if the character making the trade has a behavior rank of 2 or more. This would reduce that character's behavior rank by 2.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Ideas for 5ESpoiler:
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 10:22AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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I personally prefer social dynamics to work without dice. (Actually I would like the charisma ability to be discarded).
But your list could serve as useful advice for DMs that want to add NPC's to an adventure. NPCs with motivations, objectives and moral values are much more fun to deal with.
The DMG should provide a list of nonstandard motivations that theDM could add to to standard NPC's to make them more memorable. Everybody has a dream. This is also true for shopkeepers and gate keepers.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 10:30AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I personally prefer social dynamics to work without dice. (Actually I would like the charisma ability to be discarded).
But your list could serve as useful advice for DMs that want to NPC's to an adventure. NPCs with motivations, objectives and moral values is much more fun to deal with.
The DMG should provide a list of nonstandard motivations that they could add to to standard NPC's to make them more memorable. Everybody has a dream. This is also true for shopkeepers and gate keepers.
The system can work fine without rolls. The only part that "requires" rolls is the Appeal to Motivation, which can be adjudicated by the DM based on the interaction instead (easy fix, just don't make the skill check).
The system was born for two (three) reasons. First, having a framework of rules helps a lot to gravitate part of the gameplay and content towards it (less combat options, more social options). Second, having a framework of reference with (in my opinion good) guidelines is tremendous help to some DMs (inexperienced, people who can't improvisate too much... stuff like that). (Third, I loathe, nay, HATE to hell and back the ugly socialization rules D&D normally has. Stuff like 3.5 Diplomacy, or 4E Intimidate, should die in a fire. By having a focus on trading objectives and a balanced way to handle influencing the behavior of people, you can have a decent system IMO.)
Of course, the system would be followed by a good deal of examples of all levels of play, and random tables for lazy / unprepared DMs. I feel the system is very consistent in that almost every type of social interaction can be ruled within the system with little adjustment, and it definitely feels a lot more realistic than "I roll Diplomacy! I crit! Duke is now my bestest buddy forever!".
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Ideas for 5ESpoiler:
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 11:56AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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I couldn't agree more theMormegil. I've played this way for a long time. It works! I always develop strong NPCs. It's just part of my world building nature I guess. I even have them acting off screen occasionally.
The group may discover - "Hey did you hear so and so was arrested last night? Yeah he finally got fed up and tried to steal that painting."
These words might be about an Art dealer they sold a painting to the week before and who casually offered to pay the PCs to steal a painting from a rival. Being a good group, they declined the offer but hearing about his arrest later adds verisimilitude to the world.
So I would suggest that not only do you develop many PCs using a system like this but that intermittently you work out some events that happen off camera just for flavor.
I think a list of motivations and goals as food for thought would be useful.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 1:26PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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This can work, and is very similar to a system I proposed more than two years ago, but only if this is a NPC that you've spent time working on. But what happens when the party tries to negotiate with some random peddler you meet on the street. We can't expect DMs to come up with motivation for every NPC in the universe in the chance that the party engages them in conversation. At most, you might resurrect the Random Personae for NPCs from the original AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 1:53PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2009
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Wow, wrecan I didn't expect to see another 1e reference so soon. As I read this thread I had that exact same thought process go through my mind.
NPCs need to be thought out. Not everyone can do that all of the time. Solution, random table for quick inspiration.
I'm going to have to find a copy of 1e and go through it again.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 1:56PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2008
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While I think this is a great idea, I don't particularly see the need for it. I've always DMed 3.5 kinda this way. Sure, the Diplomacy check exists, but a lot of people out there seem to neglect the part about circomstance bonuses being completly in the DM's hand.
I do not let my players roll for Diplomacy without at least trying to roleplay it out first. Depending on the outcome of the discussion, I will adjucate a + / - something to the diplomacy (or intimidate) roll. Now I don't limit myself to +2/-2, I have given bonuses as big as +15 and as steep as -25 (if memory serves). Now I don't ever punish a player that has difficulty roleplaying, as long as the effort is there. But having learned (or guessed) the NPC's motivation and playing on them has always been a major source for the circumstance bonuses (or maluses) I gave. The way I see your suggestion is just a remake of that, which technicly was already there in 3.5 for any Dm who cared to use the circunstance rules in a heavy handed way. Oh, and one way I use the 9 alignments is to give +1 for diplomacy with a character with a matching alignment, and a -1 if opposing alignment (neutral only gives a +1 if the other alignment also fit, for a +2 total).
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 2:16PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2005
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I once ran a interaction heavy campaign where I built some house rules around alignments and related interaction methods.
I split diplomacy in to debate and inspire, and mapped each of the 4 social skills to an alignment:
Lawfulness favors debate, reasoned logical argumentation. Good favors inspiration, motivation through evoking positive emotion. Chaos favors bluff, manipulation through incomplete and incorrect information. Evil favors indimidation, motivation through evoking negative emotion.
Each type is limited in what it can attempt. Posessing an alignment can give you a bonuse to use some types and a vulnerablity to other types of persuasion.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 2:17PM
#9
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@TM I think most of your dislike for skills like Diplomacy and Intimidate has to do with using them by themselves (there are some trivial cases or use of Diplomacy as a knowledge where this can be appropriate). In general if you're working on an NPC there should be an SC involved. That way there is back and forth and nothing is trivial or absolute. My 'standard' is a basic SC where the PC first has to determine the motivations of the NPC (or it could be fears or other weaknesses depending on situation). This is usually Insight checks, but History, Diplomacy, etc might be appropriate depending. Then you can try to gauge what approach will work on them, can they be bought, do they need to be inspired, or threatened, etc. You could try inappropriate techniques but Insight or etc again would be the normal approach. Then you can make checks as needed, possibly including other actions. As a short simple SC this works well, the max number of checks is seven, but it is rare to go much over 5 in trivial cases, and usually for a basic nonentity NPC I just let them get 2 successes before a failure (IE if they can figure out the NPCs motives and what approach will work they 'win', assuming they can give the character what he/she wants or make them think better of it).
Frankly I'm not sure it matters what the PCs goals are. NPCs generally only care if they get what they want. Now and then they may want "you to fail" but even then it works, though clearly to win you'll have to change their mind.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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1 year ago ::
Apr 03, 2012 - 5:29PM
#10
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While I think this is a great idea, I don't particularly see the need for it. I've always DMed 3.5 kinda this way. Sure, the Diplomacy check exists, but a lot of people out there seem to neglect the part about circomstance bonuses being completly in the DM's hand.
I do not let my players roll for Diplomacy without at least trying to roleplay it out first. Depending on the outcome of the discussion, I will adjucate a + / - something to the diplomacy (or intimidate) roll. Now I don't limit myself to +2/-2, I have given bonuses as big as +15 and as steep as -25 (if memory serves). Now I don't ever punish a player that has difficulty roleplaying, as long as the effort is there. But having learned (or guessed) the NPC's motivation and playing on them has always been a major source for the circumstance bonuses (or maluses) I gave. The way I see your suggestion is just a remake of that, which technicly was already there in 3.5 for any Dm who cared to use the circunstance rules in a heavy handed way. Oh, and one way I use the 9 alignments is to give +1 for diplomacy with a character with a matching alignment, and a -1 if opposing alignment (neutral only gives a +1 if the other alignment also fit, for a +2 total).
I have always played this way as well.
I do think the OP has a good thought though. It's a great tool for DM's and personally, I would like to see all major NPC's have this level of detail with a viable option for persuasion/hatred for the players.
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