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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 10:59AM
#31
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Way I do not understand with all these realism arguments is how do you explain HP. It is a narrative effect that determines when a character is taken out. It is as narrativist as daily powers. Also, how do you explain a fighter going toe to toe with a huge or larger creature. Real world physics tells us that it would be almost impossible for a human to harm such a creature and that getting hit by one would certainly kill someone outright. Even a large creature would be tough to survive. Then you ghetto thins like tripping and disarming. How can these be possible with HP. If HP represents dodging out of the way or avoiding serious injury from an attack, it would make sense thr one can only be disarmed or knocked prone if they are out of HP. How does a blow that connects solidly enough to do one of those happen more easily than a blowtht would kill someone outright. What about grappling. Are you seriously suggesting it is easier to grab someone than to land a killing blow?
Once you start looking for realism in D&D things quickly fall apart. You have to realize it is a game made to play like a game and tell the tale of heroic fiction. If you want super realism GURPs might be better suited to your tastes.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 11:26AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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@Arithezoo
I understand how you do it and I assume everyone does it that way that enjoys your style of play. Somewhere along the line the DM has to know what power you used even if translated in your head. Even if the DM just lets you tell him the damage.
Well don't get me wrong they could do a lot better with the names. Trip and shield bash are fine names. Not every name is bad in 4e. Enough are though to make it hokey to most of us. And yes we did change a few names of ones that really drove us crazy. When I can say "I trip the enemy" or "I shield bash" the enemy that makes perfect sense. When I say "tide of iron" that doesn't mean anything right off. This is just one issue and if it were the only one I might still be playing 4e. I'd prefer the names be simpler and less hokey.
As for dailies. I have a fundamental problem with players deciding some big event is going to happen when in reality the character would not be making that decision. Suppose I had a power called "Decapitation of Doom" that was a daily power. I can choose to use that power at any time and only once in a day.
So the player decides at 9am on Monday that the enemy let his guard down enough for this power to go off successfully. It is much more "realistic" to me if the fighter crits and the result is decapitation. Because the roll means it could happen at any time which is realistic. No one knows for sure when an enemy will let down his guard.
@Lawolf
Hit points are an abstraction but in my game the players feel that it represents something real. I am not anti-any abstraction. I'm ok with the PCs and monsters taking turns too. To me assigning daily powers to martial characters goes beyond these things. It essentially hands a narrative power to the PCs that neither I nor my PCs want or think is realistic. We believe we are playing a game and not writing a book.
The reason I don't just say - "I don't like martial daily powers" is because we all have reasons for why we like or don't like something. I'm trying to express why because I want the developers to consider things that I consider important just like you want the same for your views. I would ask for a little empathy here from those of you feeling differently. I am not this lone crazy guy that has this opinion. These boards and others are littered with posts about 4e losing something akin to realism, verisimilitude, ability to suspend disbelief. So some group of people consider what I am talking about important. Obviously it is a continuum. I'm not even sure I'm at one end of it to be honest. I am on the simulationist side for sure but hardly hardcore. I don't want wound tables, complex grappling rules, or super complicated fumbling rules. If the developers realize what this underlying truth is then they perhaps can design a game that addresses these views while still making the 4e crowd happy too. I'm not 100% sure that meeting my needs will necessarily make you own wants invalid.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 11:40AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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Way I do not understand with all these realism arguments is how do you explain HP.
I can see why you like the resource management aspect of daily powers, and I respect that, but you asked a question about immersion, and here is my answer.
My character is fully aware that he can survive a fall from a very tall building, so when I discuss the prospect of falling with the other players then I can stay in character, because my character know the same things that I know. That doesn't spoil my immersion.
If my character has 3 hitpoints left then he knows that he is close to dieing. Of course he does not know the excact number 3, but he knows that he is in trouble. So when I discuss the situation with the other players then I can stay in character. That doesn't spoil my immersion.
On the other hand my character does not understand the concept of daily powers. So when I discuss resource management with the other players then I am forced to go out of character. Or at least I have to invent a false reason why my character refuses to perform a given action. It spoils my immersion to have tactical knowledge that isn't available to my character.
But if my powers were triggered dice rolls as in the original post then my character would have the same tactical knowledge as I do, I could stay in character when making tactical decissions. That would improve my gaming experience.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 11:55AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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Way I do not understand with all these realism arguments is how do you explain HP.
I can see why you like the resource management aspect of daily powers, and I respect that, but you asked a question about immersion, and here is my answer.
My character is fully aware that he can survive a fall from a very tall building, so when I discuss the prospect of falling with the other players then I can stay in character, because my character know the same things that I know. That doesn't spoil my immersion.
If my character has 3 hitpoints left then he knows that he is close to dieing. Of course he does not know the excact number 3, but he knows that he is in trouble. So when I discuss the situation with the other players then I can stay in character. That doesn't spoil my immersion.
On the other hand my character does not understand the concept of daily powers. So when I discuss resource management with the other players then I am forced to go out of character. Or at least I have to invent a false reason why my character refuses to perform a given action. It spoils my immersion to have tactical knowledge that isn't available to my character.
But if my powers were triggered dice rolls as in the original post then my character would have the same tactical knowledge as I do, I could stay in character when making tactical decissions. That would improve my gaming experience.
Thank you halvgrim. I think you expressed it more succintly and better than I did.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 12:24PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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Way I do not understand with all these realism arguments is how do you explain HP.
I can see why you like the resource management aspect of daily powers, and I respect that, but you asked a question about immersion, and here is my answer.
My character is fully aware that he can survive a fall from a very tall building, so when I discuss the prospect of falling with the other players then I can stay in character, because my character know the same things that I know. That doesn't spoil my immersion.
If my character has 3 hitpoints left then he knows that he is close to dieing. Of course he does not know the excact number 3, but he knows that he is in trouble. So when I discuss the situation with the other players then I can stay in character. That doesn't spoil my immersion.
On the other hand my character does not understand the concept of daily powers. So when I discuss resource management with the other players then I am forced to go out of character. Or at least I have to invent a false reason why my character refuses to perform a given action. It spoils my immersion to have tactical knowledge that isn't available to my character.
But if my powers were triggered dice rolls as in the original post then my character would have the same tactical knowledge as I do, I could stay in character when making tactical decissions. That would improve my gaming experience.
Thank you halvgrim. I think you expressed it more succintly and better than I did.
But you are both ignoring my point. Why is it that you can say the following:
-My fighter knows about the concept of hp and damage. So a 1st level fighter with 29 hp knows that he can't be killed in one hit by a 1st level goblin. He knows that he can fall 20 feet without dying (every time). He knows that a 30 ft. drop has only a 0.4% chance of killing him, etc.
- My fighter knows about the concept of skill/stat bonuses and DCs. So, for example, he knows that with his +10 athletics bonus he has a certain percentage of making a jump, and he knows the exact percentage. He also knows that there is a variance of 20 ft. for every running long jump he makes (because of the d20 roll, which adds up to 4 squares of distance).
But for some reason you can't say that your fighter knows about the concept of Daily powers. Why not? Why can't he know that he can only pull off his big move once per day? If your only answer is, "Because it isn't realistic", we can stop right here. If your fighter knows about all the other game mechanics that aren't realistic, there is no reason why he shouldn't also know about daily powers.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 12:41PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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But for some reason you can't say that your fighter knows about the concept of Daily powers. Why not? Why can't he know that he can only pull off his big move once per day? If your only answer is, "Because it isn't realistic", we can stop right here. If your fighter knows about all the other game mechanics that aren't realistic, there is no reason why he shouldn't also know about daily powers.
That is a good point, and I am afraid that you are right. Dealing with this knowledge would be so unrealistic that it would just spoil my immerson 
If my fighter was somehow magical or if he had a pool of ki powers gained through meditation, then I could understand, but otherwise it would be too unrealistic for me.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 12:52PM
#37
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But you are both ignoring my point.
Sometimes it's more like going to court than having a conversation around here >.<
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 12:59PM
#38
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And again, grappling, disarming, and knocking things prone are highly unrealistic in the context of D&D combat. So arguing for combat to be realistic seems a little silly.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 1:32PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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But you are both ignoring my point. Why is it that you can say the following:
-My fighter knows about the concept of hp and damage. So a 1st level fighter with 29 hp knows that he can't be killed in one hit by a 1st level goblin. He knows that he can fall 20 feet without dying (every time). He knows that a 30 ft. drop has only a 0.4% chance of killing him, etc.
- My fighter knows about the concept of skill/stat bonuses and DCs. So, for example, he knows that with his +10 athletics bonus he has a certain percentage of making a jump, and he knows the exact percentage. He also knows that there is a variance of 20 ft. for every running long jump he makes (because of the d20 roll, which adds up to 4 squares of distance).
But for some reason you can't say that your fighter knows about the concept of Daily powers. Why not? Why can't he know that he can only pull off his big move once per day? If your only answer is, "Because it isn't realistic", we can stop right here. If your fighter knows about all the other game mechanics that aren't realistic, there is no reason why he shouldn't also know about daily powers.
Because I can imagine taking damage from a sword blow. I can imagine falling. I can imagine performing a skill. I can't imagine knowing some thing martial that I can then only do once per day. In all of the history of man, I have no example of a purely martial thing that can only be done once per day. I have seen sword blows, falling, and skills being done (at least on tv :-)).
I as flabbergasted and frustrated that you can't understand as you are that I am bothered by it. There is an important difference. Halvgrim and I both understand it. Others do to. Many don't. Not sure why that is except maybe our brains are wired differently. One things for sure. It is distinct and it is not just "We don't like martial dailies."
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1 year ago ::
Apr 02, 2012 - 1:54PM
#40
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Because I can imagine taking damage from a sword blow. I can imagine falling. I can imagine performing a skill. I can't imagine knowing some thing martial that I can then only do once per day. In all of the history of man, I have no example of a purely martial thing that can only be done once per day. I have seen sword blows, falling, and skills being done (at least on tv :-)).
I as flabbergasted and frustrated that you can't understand as you are that I am bothered by it. There is an important difference. Halvgrim and I both understand it. Others do to. Many don't. Not sure why that is except maybe our brains are wired differently. One things for sure. It is distinct and it is not just "We don't like martial dailies."
I have no example of a musician who never messed up a note or an actor who always got his lines right. Yet D&D wizards never mess up their intricate magical spells (unless they abstractly lose hit points to a possible hit or non-hit in some editions), which I imagine must be at least as hard as reciting simple words or playing a piece of music.
I have no example of a person being able to say with assurance that he can jump from a height of 30 or 40 feet or more and walk away, nor can I imagine a plausible explanation for this. Yet whole parties of D&D characters can join hands and leap from buildings or cliffs with total confidence in their survival.
For me, martial dailies take the place of silly things like climbing up trees in the middle of combat to jump down on foes and asking for the DM to make a ruling. They take the place of narrating combat maneuvers ("I tumble between the ogre's legs and hamstring him - what do I need to roll?") and begging for a bonus. They solve the problem of cheesing a bonus every time a situation comes up ("Oh there's another ogre in this next room? OK, I tumble..." "Ooh me too!").
I respect that everyone should like what he likes and try to creat the hobby environment he wants, but to me a lot of the posts around here basically say, "This is what D&D was like when I found it and that's the only way it will be fun for me," if not in regard to the whole system, then at least for some rules.
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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