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May 4, 2012 -- 7:49AM, Rheios wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 7:27AM, lokiare wrote:

Ah, now I see where the disconnect is. You missed the rule that says you can refluff any power to do what you want it to do as long as mechanically it doesn't change. This in fact gives you more options.

If you go back and read your precious preferred 3.5E rules you'll find that many of the spells and actions carried over to 4E, and if you played by the rules in 3.5E you couldn't do half of what people claim you could. Also people seem to gloss over rituals in 4E, which are literally a second set of spells that can be used outside combat to accomplish nearly anything you could in 3.5E, but in a balanced manner (i.e. no more wizards charming the entire town, or unlocking doors the rogue had problems with, no more showing the fighter up by killing everything in the room before the fighter could even get close).

jfriant didn't really seem say anything to warrant condescension, he was just expressing his view of the rules as he understands them. It isn't the first time you've heard the argument, I'm sure, but no reason to take it out on him. =)

That being said, with the opinion being repeated so many times, I wonder where "the disconnect" as you referenced it comes from. Something deeper has to be causing it. We should find out what that is and see if it can be fixed for 5e, or a simliar problem may occur even if the game were to meet everyone's expectations.

Please keep in mind that I may have misinterpreted the "precious' comment to sound condescending because I do enjoy 3.5 edition and haven't played 4e, so I do have a bias. If it wasn't how you meant it, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Nah, that's fine, I should have stated it that way.

The only thing I can think of is they put the rituals in the back of the book and didn't really point them out beyond saying wizards get one or two of them. If they had emphasized them more, then they probably would have gotten more face time in games.

The cool thing about rituals was that there were more than just spell rituals, there were rituals for other groups as well.

May 4, 2012 -- 2:46PM, Shasarak wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 7:27AM, lokiare wrote:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Ah, now I see where the disconnect is. You missed the rule that says you can refluff any power to do what you want it to do as long as mechanically it doesn't change. This in fact gives you more options.

But that is the same with all editions of DnD. That was my point. You can actually roleplay, but since you have more options than I attack it with my sword, then describe some huge role-play scene. In 4E you can attack in many different ways, but describe some huge role-play scene. In other words more options.

If you go back and read your precious 3.5E rules you'll find that many of the spells and actions carried over to 4E, and if you played by the rules in 3.5E you couldn't do half of what people claim you could. Also people seem to gloss over rituals in 4E, which are literally a second set of spells that can be used outside combat to accomplish nearly anything you could in 3.5E, but in a balanced manner (i.e. no more wizards charming the entire town, or unlocking doors the rogue had problems with, no more showing the fighter up by killing everything in the room before the fighter could even get close).

There is this cool new spell in 4e called Knock.  Dont worry, a lot of people seem to gloss over rituals.

Yeah, but its balanced now because it takes a lot of time and there is a chance of failure for the wizard. Its no longer unbalanced like the rogue takes 1 minute and fails his roll, but then the wizard walks up and takes 10 seconds to cast a spell that's automatically effective...

May 4, 2012 -- 5:20PM, Gnarl wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 7:27AM, lokiare wrote:

If you go back and read your precious 3.5E rules you'll find that many of the spells and actions carried over to 4E, and if you played by the rules in 3.5E you couldn't do half of what people claim you could. Also people seem to gloss over rituals in 4E, which are literally a second set of spells that can be used outside combat to accomplish nearly anything you could in 3.5E, but in a balanced manner (i.e. no more wizards charming the entire town, or unlocking doors the rogue had problems with, no more showing the fighter up by killing everything in the room before the fighter could even get close).

You'll have to show me how you can make your whole group Invisible, Charm a guard, put sentries to Sleep, use Silence to sneak into a castle, cast Fly or Levitate to reach places you wouldn't otherwise be able to reach, cast Disguise Self to impersonate someone or use illusions to create a distraction. I only have PHB1 and 90% of the campaigns I played in over the last 20 years never made it past level 13.

We really really tried but we never found a way to use spells to avoid a fight.

Wall of fog, arcane gate, fly, sleep, silence ritual, levitate, mass fly, a bunch of powers that grant bonuses to social checks which is equivalent to charm person (makes people view you in the most positive light, but doesn't force them to be your slaves), mirrored entourage, obscuring mist, and walk between worlds. Most of these have sustain minor. Looks like you didn't really look into 4E...

May 4, 2012 -- 9:55PM, Kaldric wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Garthanos wrote:

May 3, 2012 -- 11:03PM, Kaldric wrote:

I want abstract combat that is a simple, quick determination: Did you succeed at hurting the other guy? GOOD! Next round! 

Why not go play roll high wins - Who needs formal rules for that?

You seem to make a hobby out of excluding the middle.

Heh, it was rather where I went with it when my tastes were of that sort... I found my players were comfortable enough with my game mastering and we had established expectations between us and coming to the why not wing it conclusion, was very natural -  ofcourse then I picked up Amber.

A quote from Gygax about the real secret of roleplaying games comes to mind.