Maybe a DM can combat the 5-minute day, but how is that good design?
Because, as it turns out, having everybody in exactly the same power distribution is boring, unrealistic to the point of breaking immersion and doesn't really help the problem.
Gotcha, so my fighter having no encounter or daily abilities is interesting, realistic, and great for my immersion. And here I mean immersion in texting. I hate myself a little for answering with sarcasm, but sometimes that's what I've got when you try to tell me what is universally fun.
It just moves it around a bit. Heck, the 5 minute work day problem is actually worse in 4e then in 3e, because everybody in the party can unload with daily powers at the same time. And with powerful encounter powers and effective at-will powers, they can sit on the daily powers until they run into a key boss.
OK, I appreciate that you moved on to something about game design. I'm not sure what problem you're isolating though, except that PCs use their best resources against the biggest challenges. Also, the design of daily powers makes many better if spread out - some grant a powerful standard action while others are only good against multiple targets. In any game with daily resources though, something unexpected can drain them early. Maybe some lucky enemies make the cleric drop a big healing daily before the boss fight, but the party can keep going despite that. What I like about a (more or less) uniform structure such as in 4E is that everyone at the table is managing resources instead of only a few players making the grown-up decisions while the troops on the front line are rolling to hit and rolling for damage.
To purge the game of the 5 minute workday problem entirely, you either have to purge resource management from the game entirely or give DMs the tools to handle it. Removing all resource management and making all powers encounter or at-will and making healing unlimited between fights would work mechanically but fixing a game design problem by purging some of the most interesting and challenging parts of the game is terrible. You might as well simply remove all classes but fighter since cross-class balance is hard also. The other solution is explain the problem to DMs and give them the tools to adjust fights to match the workday the party will face and show them how to build interesting adventures with varied work days.
What a relief that I never proposed removing all daily resources! My emphasis is exactly what I said above: why should some classes be inherently built for boss killing and planning and metagaming, while others are built for repetitive dice rolling and limited choices?
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
But that is the road to either (a) 5 minute days or (b) wizards ignoring easier fights and trivializing harder ones.
The latter is resource management, the former isn't. Hey, it's not for everyone.
It sounds like D&DN will have Javelin of Fire because crossbows are lame. And then vancian spells like pre4e. Is that a cool compromise?
Resting after the party has run out of Sleep and CLW to cast IS resource management. It's management of the "hit point" resource in an environment in which this resource can disappear very quickly and return very slowly. And for the guys who are talking about immersion, it's nice not to run back to the inn and "find" another first level fighter to replace the one the orcs killed. In an environment with different resources and less rocket tag, maybe those won't be concerns.
Giving wizards some at-will spells certainly makes them more like what I imagine wizards to be though (i.e. guys who cast spells) so cheers.
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
5e burning hands would be better as an at will for a Fire elementalist, not for standard wizards.
instead, i'd recommend the following At Will Spells, beginning with the first 2 at level 1:
Read Magic Detect Magic
Additionally, I would set up Artificers or similar magic item specialists with Identify, rather than something like Burning Hand Lance or whatever. Likewise, Necromancers might get Detect Undead.
In addition to these, I'd probably set up a wide variety of cantrips, or 0 level spells, and then have a 1st level wizard have 3 of them that could be cast at will. If using the 0 level Apprentice rules with kiddie rules, you might have the apprentices learn cantrips as if they were spells, but also learn 1 "at will" cantrip per feat or as a class ability.
Feather Fall would be available for Air Elementalists instead of Burning Lance of Dexterous Doom available to the Fire guys. Water Wizards would be kinda screwed, but at say, 5th-9th level, they could get Water Breathing at will. This is my first example of a "higher level" at will power.
Force Wizards might get any one of the following, being combat ready like the Fire Elementalist:
Magic Missile Mage Armor Shield
I'd probably set these guys up with the other two at 3rd and 5th levels. i'd probably allow something like Mount as an at will ability for 1st level Summoners, and grant them access to Phantom Steed at 5th-9th level as an at will like Water Elementalists.
Mentalists would probably get Hypnotism, while an Enchantress would have a Choice between the following two:
Charm Person Sleep
...Possibly with Charm Monster at 7th-12th level, at will, thus far my highest delayed ability. I would probably give abjurists Protection from Evil at 1st and Dispel Magic at 5th-9th level, but I don't think anyone plays them. I could also see a Transmuter having some kind of Alter Self at 3rd level, or Polymorph Self at 7th-12th.
I hope that clears up how I feel about Wizards with At Will Abilities.
I know that it's not magic per say, but I've been rewatching all Avatar the last air Bender episodes in preparation for Korra (if you don't know what I'm talking about, do yourself a favor and find out).
I'm making a parralel with let's say, Katara. She is a water bender (in my metaphor, let's say bending = magic).
At the beggining, she could barely water bend, sometimes did things like turning water to ice without meaning too, had to concentrate to mantain a bubble of water and could only break open an isberg while in a fit of anger, and don't ask her how she did it, she could not tell you. Let's say that level would be a first level NPC class.
Latter, she gets better at it, she can water bend with consistency, but it's taxing on her. The little things, like getting water in her gourd instead of pumping the water could be done at will, but turning water to ice, throwing ice daggers at opponent, or making the tide raise, could only be done a few times, and with concentration. Let's call that low-level PC.
Latter, she could turn water to ice at will, using nearby water to form an almost instant ice shield was done with a mere thought, and she developped new powers that were linked with water bending: she was a healer. Healing was new to her, and doing it was taxing (all right, not so much, but let's just roll with it for my metaphore's sake). Mid-level PC.
Still latter, she became a skilled healer, she could raise the tides of rivers wiht a mere thought, and do it all day long, or at least as much times as a warrior could swing his sword, it was second nature to her. But a new ability was discovered: blood-bending. Hard, taking a lot of concentration to pull off, she did not do that offten (granted on the show it was a moral choice, but never mind that now): High-level PC.
So that is what I want my magic user to be. If I play a pyromancer, I want to be like Zuko!
First level: Throw fire at will, comparable to a... gasp... crosbow!! But I could concentrate to make the flames hotter, just not as often. At latter level, I'm making it as hot as I used to do once in a while all the time. And sometimes, I could use advance techniques, like fire breathing. When fire breathing becomes second nature to me, I can start on making lightning... once in a while, or maybe making blue flames, etc...
So basically, go back to previous edition's spell level. Eventually, low level spells would become at will. Even for a high level character however, having mid-level spells at will could be overpowered. So you could get, as a class ability, the ability to choose a few spells from mid-level that become at-will.
I want the feeling to be a bender in the world of avatar, or in D&D term: "I don't need no stinking torches, I'm a wizard and I mastered the ability to shed light from my hands a long time ago... what do you mean only a few minutes per day, no sir, all day long, all night long if I really wanted to, but why would I?"
And at later levels: "Yes, I know my brother can fly all day long, he's always been a dreamer, don't bug me about not being as good as him. Sure, I can cast a spell to make me... or you fly, but not all day long. I've always preferred the sights of the sea to that of the clouds, so I prefered to apply myself at water breathing, remind me to show you the cottage I build myself near that siren colony, lovely!"
So one brother chose fly as a third level (3.5) at-will spell whn he reached, let's say, 11th level, and the other chose water breathing, thus making them feel like real magic user, all the time, not just a few minutes per day, but both of them are extremly different characters.
So yeah, basically you could not just take the 3.X spells and apply this, but if you build and balance the system with that in mind, it could work, and be very nice to play in my opinion!
I really just want spellcasters to have at will spells. And being forced to take a feat to do so isn't an answer, it's just a problem. 4e did a great thing giving spellcasters at will attacks so they can always cast some kinda spell. They're spellcasters, that's what they do. I mean I never played a spellcaster in 3.5 but my friend played a sorcerer. And yeah, for the first couple rounds he was fine. Blasting spells and all. And then...then he sucked. The rest of us kept having to fight and he just had to hang back and not get killed because he suddenly was useless. And I've had people in my own group argue that when he did cast spells he did more damage because his were more area spells to hit more people. And yet, half the time he wasn't casting area spells. And he usually only casted area spells in the first round of combat because otherwise all us melee people would be mixed in and we didn't want to get fried by his fireball. This was accounted for later in the game when he asked for something to help protect us from his spells and the DM let him craft a pair of bracers. One he wore, the other someone else wore and that person was immune to his spells. Since my fighter was basically the main damage dealer of the group I gotta be immune. That still didn't save anyone else though, and as a result the sorcerer actually didn't do more damage, and in fact did less more often than not because of it.
I've seen people here who are all, "Guess what, just use a crossbow it does the same thing". Yeah, mechanically a crossbow may do similar damage do the damage from an at will spell. But guess what? A crossbow isn't a spell. It's a weapon. These are spellcasters who should be blasting spells all throughout a battle. Even if that at will spell does the same as a fighter with a crossbow, so what? It's the fact that they're still casting spells. I just think the more I hear about 5e the less I'm liking the idea of it. Or it'll just make me disinclined to want to play a spellcaster if I know I'm going to be useless after a round or two and then either have to try and hit with a crossbow or stand around. The other thing is that from the Rule of Three it sounds like they're going to go backwards when it comes to attack bonuses. And I could be wrong, but the way they worded it is that we're going to see individual atk bonus progression based on the classes like in 3.5. Which sucked. Again, in terms of spellcasters I saw my friend's sorcerer suck at hitting because the sorcerer got crap for an atk bonus. He HAD to multiclass to get a couple extra points for atk bonus because he could barely hit if he stayed as just a sorcerer.
Not exactly on topic, but I really prefer 4e's way. You get better as you level up, everyone gets better. Instead of the fighter who always got better at hitting as he leveled but the sorcerer might only get better at hitting every other level or two.
I'm not disputing that both 3e and 4e have problems with players always wanting to take extended rests after every fight. I'm just saying the logic in the quote above doesn't make sense to me.
Yep, the example was rather mangled.
The idea is roughly the same, but it isn't a 5 minute work day. The party gets into a tough fight, and then everybody brings out their big guns at the same time and blows the enemy way.
Gotcha, so my fighter having no encounter or daily abilities is interesting, realistic, and great for my immersion. And here I mean immersion in texting. I hate myself a little for answering with sarcasm, but sometimes that's what I've got when you try to tell me what is universally fun.
I didn't say that at all. I have nothing against fighters having encounter or daily powers, though there needs to be an option for players who don't like daily powers. The problem is with everybody in the party having exactly the same distribution of powers. What sort of in game logic is there for fighters, wizards and clerics to have exactly the same number of at-will, encounter and daily powers? None, they didn't even try, it is pure mechanical game balance. And while it does help class balance, it creates it's own problems, and makes the 5 minute work day problem worse. It isn't a good trade off for the game.
What I like about a (more or less) uniform structure such as in 4E is that everyone at the table is managing resources instead of only a few players making the grown-up decisions while the troops on the front line are rolling to hit and rolling for damage.
The problem with that is there are a lot of people who don't want to be making decisions about resources. Some people prefer the essentials classes exactly because they don't have to worry about managing resources much. And of those classes, Slayer is by far the most popular, because the people who don't want to manage resources mostly just want to charge in, swing a sword and roll some dice to cut down some monsters. It may not be your cup of tea, it certainly isn't mine, but it needs to be available as an option for people who don't want to deal with complex resource management.
However, once you allow that, it makes the job of the DM harder. With different classes on different power distributions, it is harder to balance encounters across a day. The number and size need to be tweaked based on the power distribution of the party.
That's not entirely true. There is a mechanical way to fix it, which is to provide an offsetting resource of comparable value that grows between rests and depletes with rest. 4ed tried this with the "milestone" but it was a dismal failure. The benefits of a milestone were far outweighed by the benefits of rest.
In theory, but it would be very hard to balance even in the original 4e when every class had the same power distribution. Once you allow classes to have different power distributions, there is no way you can balance it so that it has the right bonus.
The harder you work for something, the more rewarding it should be.
That is the polar opposite of how I feel about class design. At level 1 every party member should be contributing equally to the party's success. At level 15 every party member should be contributing equally to the party's success. A class shouldn't 'suck' for a portion of the game so they can 'dominate' the rest of the game. Progression should be consistent between classes, that is one of the most basic forms of balance that many of us argue for.
That doesn't mean there isn't struggle, and that classes shouldn't get stronger. But you struggle as a party, and you gain strength as a party. One member doesn't hold the part up for the first half, and another holds it up for the second half. Everyone should be contributing from levels 1-20/30.
Exactly, +1, Indeed, This, etc.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )
Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotesShow
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
But that is the road to either (a) 5 minute days or (b) wizards ignoring easier fights and trivializing harder ones.
The latter is resource management, the former isn't. Hey, it's not for everyone.
It sounds like D&DN will have Javelin of Fire because crossbows are lame. And then vancian spells like pre4e. Is that a cool compromise?
Resting after the party has run out of Sleep and CLW to cast IS resource management. It's management of the "hit point" resource in an environment in which this resource can disappear very quickly and return very slowly. And for the guys who are talking about immersion, it's nice not to run back to the inn and "find" another first level fighter to replace the one the orcs killed. In an environment with different resources and less rocket tag, maybe those won't be concerns.
I think doing so actually was considered the action of "superior players" you know not blundering on when it was stupid to do so, not holding back and risking your groups fragile hides. The DM vs Spellcasters aspect of it, is annoying. But when you run out of bazookas and bandaids isnt it smart to restock... bar the door figure out as many tricks to make it work. The game came directly out of Wargaming mindset it encouraged it with one hand ... the adversarial DM was supposed to battle it. Of course this meant both the wizards power and wizards limits became the center focus of play and could very well be that way at level one.
I really dont think people saw the 5 minute whatever work day as a bad thing back then gaming culture changed perhaps.
Every character is a hero in their own storyline, and sometimes the adventuring party is just supporting cast. Who knows. If I could throw them in a pit full of wolves to fight over raw meat, I probably would.
Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but I think you are going to find very few people to support that opinion.
