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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 10:35AM
#51
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2010
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I agree with what people are saying. A clerics domain/god decides what a cleric can turn/command. Maybe if your domain and god overlap the turn/command effect becomes stronger. I agree that there should be ways to make it stronger, either through feats or levels. You should also be able to learn how to turn other things as you become stronger, either through levels, but feats sound like the better option. I also didn't read it the first time, but Auras or Bursts should be the choice over cones. I think most enemies should have a turn effect written in their stat block like Mike said that has different effects, but Keep it Simple. So, just have a Stat section that states how certain types of monsters are affected by turn effects. I think also that if the creature that you are trying to turn/command ever passes the DC, then they are not suceptible to the effect for the rest of the encounter, but if you have added damage, or whatever, they can still take that.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 11:08AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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@Rils
I just wanted to point out how hilariously awesome it would be to have the turn Tarrasque ability in 5E.
I'd rather take Turn Human. They're everywhere.
And thats why it should have a limited number of uses per day. I also advocate for making so that the turning is based on creature keywords rather than specific types although human would be a keyword on that list so it should totally be possible, for a pure evil deity.
I fail to see the evil in riot control. Hell, it's basically a magic water hose, which might make it questionably ethical, but no more then tasing people now in the US, and I wouldn't say that US police or government would be called pure even by everyone.
Turning is not riot control. Turning is causing your gods will to invade the very fiber of a being and change its will in some way. Doing that to any intelligent non evil being is in fact evil to my mind. so for me almost every good god will have turn evil (blank), neutral gods will have turn (blank), and evil gods will have turn good (blank) with a few gods such as pelor having turn evil. examples: turn evil dragons, or turn good dragons, or turn dragons. For Bahaumut, Tiamat, and IO respectively
Plently of RW religions have dieties and gods who invade the will of people for both good and ill intent for those people. The Torah has it, Greek mythology has it, and if I bothered to do some research, I could probably come up with others.
Gods in D&D should not have to worry about being *nice*, and having a taboo against all mind control effects is silly, particularly if means that any forced movement effects caused by non physical stuff is out of bounds, and that people can use their force of will to resist it.
A god deciding to do it and a fallible being decreeing that it happens is a different thing entirely. As a cleric you are an extension of your gods will, your will is not your gods will. Willing an innocent being to run/cower/be destroyed/banished before you based solely on it's race is evil, and I have no ability to see it otherwise. Now if it were to be "turn evil" then totally go for it, if it manages to turn a human then that human will have done terrible almost demonic acts in order to gain that keyword. At least that's how I see it.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 11:10AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2011
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Willing an innocent being to run/cower/be destroyed/banished before you based solely on it's race
What, precisely, leads you to believe that this is how the ability would be used? "I'm being attacked by ruthless human bandits. Perhaps I should do something." And in that respect, it's no different from Turn Undead. You're repelling them based on what they are, not what they've done. Not all undead are evil.
To say nothing that one may have the ability without being a cleric in-character, via reflavoring.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 11:28AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Willing an innocent being to run/cower/be destroyed/banished before you based solely on it's race
What, precisely, leads you to believe that this is how the ability would be used? "I'm being attacked by ruthless human bandits. Perhaps I should do something." And in that respect, it's no different from Turn Undead. You're repelling them based on what they are, not what they've done. Not all undead are evil.
To say nothing that one may have the ability without being a cleric in-character, via reflavoring.
Thats the fun point, if you have turn evil, then it won't work on bandits, and in fact you need to bring them to task for what they have done manually...It's your job. Limited uses in a day means it isn't and should not be used in every encounter to solve every problem. The beauty of the cleric is that, "I'm being attacked by ruthless human bandits. Perhaps I should do something.", results in hitting them with your mace because as a cleric your still a weapon wielding class. Heck you get to use plate armor as a cleric in previous editions, with no negetive to your casting at that. Your turning should be something that is used against the direct and hated enemies of your god. If your direct and hated enemy is based on race alone YOU ARE EVIL, no ifs ands or buts about it. For example:
I as a cleric for one reason or another have turn evil orcs as one of my turning types. I am in combat with a couple of orcs. I attempt to turn the orcs. It doesn't work. I am now faced with an interesting conundrum. I can't outright kill these orcs because they aren't truely evil. I will have to knock them unconscious and tie them up so I might talk to them after they regain consciousness. Or I will have to try to turn the tables of this fight by attempting to talk in the middle of combat and get them to lower their weapons. If they are truly attempting to kill me I can defeat them, however I should feel bad about it later that I could not attempt to talk to these beings to come to a less drastic conclusion.
the only time it is okay is if the race is synonymous with evil. Such as turn devil or turn demon.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 11:37AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2011
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Thats the fun point, if you have turn evil, then it won't work on bandits,
It more than likely will, as people who make their living by attacking innocent travelers are most likely evil. Not that 'evil' should ever be a codified keyword or game element of any sort.
and in fact you need to bring them to task for what they have done manually...It's your job. Limited uses in a day means it isn't and should not be used in every encounter to solve every problem. The beauty of the cleric is that, "I'm being attacked by ruthless human bandits. Perhaps I should do something.", results in hitting them with your mace because as a cleric your still a weapon wielding class.
Is there a reason one can't do both? Or use your other magical abilities as well? And, again, you assume the character is an IC cleric. It may simply be a magic ability that repels certain types of creatures.
Heck you get to use plate armor as a cleric in previous editions, with no negetive to your casting at that. Your turning should be something that is used against the direct and hated enemies of your god.
I disagree, particularly since clerics don't need gods and cleric-the-class and cleric-the-concept are not necessarily synonymous.
If your direct and hated enemy is based on race alone YOU ARE EVIL, no ifs ands or buts about it.
So, Corellon is evil because he directly hates drow, orcs and goblins? Moradin is evil because he directly hates giants?
For example:
I as a cleric for one reason or another have turn evil orcs as one of my turning types. I am in combat with a couple of orcs. I attempt to turn the orcs. It doesn't work. I am now faced with an interesting conundrum. I can't outright kill these orcs because they aren't truely evil.
If the orcs are attempting to do you bodily harm, you have every right to defend yourself.
I will have to knock them unconscious and tie them up so I might talk to them after the regain consciousness. Or I will have to try to turn the tables of this fight by attempting to talk in the middle of combat and get them to lower their weapons. If they are truly attempting to kill me I can defeat them, however I should feel bad about it later that I could not attempt to talk to these beings to come to a less drastic conclusion.
Not really. If someone is attempting to kill you, you are entitled to defend yourself with reciprocal force.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 11:57AM
#56
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Things I would like:
DC based on creature.
One simple-ish roll.
Unique effects for some but not all creatures, or a "turn ends" effect on some undead abilities like posession.
Other stuff:
I'd like a more general use (seriously, if we're expanding this to cover exorcism, let that be used on demons). Maybe it could be tied to the same resource as domain powers.
This one's a lot closer to a rule I would actually use than the last column was. Proper clerical exorcism as the default would be awesome.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 11:58AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Thats the fun point, if you have turn evil, then it won't work on bandits,
It more than likely will, as people who make their living by attacking innocent travelers are most likely evil. Not that 'evil' should ever be a codified keyword or game element of any sort.
and in fact you need to bring them to task for what they have done manually...It's your job. Limited uses in a day means it isn't and should not be used in every encounter to solve every problem. The beauty of the cleric is that, "I'm being attacked by ruthless human bandits. Perhaps I should do something.", results in hitting them with your mace because as a cleric your still a weapon wielding class.
Is there a reason one can't do both? Or use your other magical abilities as well? And, again, you assume the character is an IC cleric. It may simply be a magic ability that repels certain types of creatures.
Heck you get to use plate armor as a cleric in previous editions, with no negetive to your casting at that. Your turning should be something that is used against the direct and hated enemies of your god.
I disagree, particularly since clerics don't need gods and cleric-the-class and cleric-the-concept are not necessarily synonymous.
If your direct and hated enemy is based on race alone YOU ARE EVIL, no ifs ands or buts about it.
So, Corellon is evil because he directly hates drow, orcs and goblins? Moradin is evil because he directly hates giants?
For example:
I as a cleric for one reason or another have turn evil orcs as one of my turning types. I am in combat with a couple of orcs. I attempt to turn the orcs. It doesn't work. I am now faced with an interesting conundrum. I can't outright kill these orcs because they aren't truely evil.
If the orcs are attempting to do you bodily harm, you have every right to defend yourself.
I will have to knock them unconscious and tie them up so I might talk to them after the regain consciousness. Or I will have to try to turn the tables of this fight by attempting to talk in the middle of combat and get them to lower their weapons. If they are truly attempting to kill me I can defeat them, however I should feel bad about it later that I could not attempt to talk to these beings to come to a less drastic conclusion.
Not really. If someone is attempting to kill you, you are entitled to defend yourself with reciprocal force.
I'm sorry you don't see it, but to me yes racism is thoroughly evil. Now attach an evil descriptor to the front of all those races you listed for corellon (as originally all the races you listed for corellon were inherently evil as much as demons and devils were) and congrats you have not racism but a hatred of evil which is a lot more acceptable than racism. The character themselves might always hate all orcs, but like I said their will is not their gods will, and learning the difference should be a part of the growth for that character in fact.
Also, to me, cleric means you have a god or core set of shared beliefs. If that core set of shared beliefs says that you hate based on race alone then yeah your shared beliefs (also known as a religion) are evil.
Responding with reciprocal force doesn't mean you don't feel bad about it later. That's why after a cop shoots someone they have to go for a psych eval. Because generally it affects you as a person.
as for reskinning things to make a cleric that isn't actually a cleric in story actually supports this style even better because you could just say yeah you can turn these keywords go at it buddy.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 12:11PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2011
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I'm sorry you don't see it, but to me yes racism is thoroughly evil.
I agree.
Now attach an evil descriptor to the front of all those races you listed for corellon (as originally all the races you listed for corellon were inherently evil
There is no such thing as inherently evil.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 12:12PM
#59
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There is no such thing as inherently evil.
Sure there is, particularly in a fantasy world, especially when something is defined as such.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Default module =/= Core mechanic.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 12:14PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2011
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There is no such thing as inherently evil.
Sure there is, particularly in a fantasy world.
I disagree. Where there is free will, there is free choice. Any creature can choose its own path; properly motivated, even a demon or devil can change its ways.
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