|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 3:02PM
#21
|
Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
|
I know that and you know that, but new players don't know that, especially when they're used to having their options spoon fed to them. The powers list did nothing to help break that habit. Better for me to have taken completely out of the environment. I still like how easy it is, from a DMs standpoint, to throw things together, but then I reverse-engineer it to 2e.
I must say that 4th ed is the first, for my players and for myself, and perhaps I'm just lucky to have two instigators (player type, named thus in the DMG for 4th) within my player group. They use powers, use the environment, take risks, and show the other players that it can be fun to do so. To the point where they improvise with skills about as much as they improvise with powers. That is to say, a whole bunch.  And then sometimes they even use their powers for what they were written for.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
Show
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 3:06PM
#22
|
|
|
I must have been lucky too, Kalnaur.
Half my player group from 4E was new to the game at one point, and they too did improvise and not let themselves be restricted to a 'choose only what you have' method of gaming. Might have also have something to do with me encouraging innovative ideas and telling them straight-away that I'm not only golden with them improvising, but also reward it.
If you have questions about 4th Edition - don't hesitate to ask me via PMs. Join the Community Monster Manual Group and help to collect a mass of monsters which will make your life as DM easier, and your life as Player pure hell! I am a cartographer. You can find some of my maps in my profile, free for non-commercial use. Also, if you happen to like maps or make them yourselves, join into the Cartographers Group!
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 3:58PM
#23
|
Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
|
I must have been lucky too, Kalnaur.
Half my player group from 4E was new to the game at one point, and they too did improvise and not let themselves be restricted to a 'choose only what you have' method of gaming. Might have also have something to do with me encouraging innovative ideas and telling them straight-away that I'm not only golden with them improvising, but also reward it.
My wife first game out improvised with that skull trap in Kobold Hall (which I made revisions to, but left the traps) where she grabbed the trap as it came to her and swung up to the platforms, killed a standard kobold, and then used an action point and a bare attack to kick a minion kobold down the stairs.
And then everyone started climbing things, jumping, swinging, etc.
One good early example was all it took, and all I had to do was say yes, and reward success while still punishing failure. And they love it.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
Show
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 4:07PM
#24
|
Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
|
I don't believe most people are able to make a character in ANY game system in 10 minutes.
A set of combat stats and abilities, yes. You can do that in Rifts, the most mechanically complex character-generation system I've seen. You can do it even easier with a good computer program.
But a character? Something with a history, a personality, and goals, in addition to combat stats and abilities, and the whole package actually fitting together in a cohesive manner? Nope.
Of course, some people are happy with a set of combat stats and abilities. I've played RPGs designed on that premise - once or twice each.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 4:09PM
#25
|
|
|
Character creation has a long, long history of being a very fun component of an RPG system. Not for everybody, but for many. Diminishing that sort of fun seems counter-productive to what 5E wants to achieve.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Default module =/= Core mechanic.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 4:10PM
#26
|
Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
|
I'd like to be able to roll up a character in 10 minutes at the table, at the beginning of a session.
..Great when introducing new players to the game or, rolling a new character when you're dead, or when a passer-by wants to join an ongoing game.
Every edition of D&D to date has been able to solve this problem more effectively with pre-gens.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 4:16PM
#27
|
Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
|
I'd like to be able to roll up a character in 10 minutes at the table, at the beginning of a session.
..Great when introducing new players to the game or, rolling a new character when you're dead, or when a passer-by wants to join an ongoing game.
Every edition of D&D to date has been able to solve this problem more effectively with pre-gens.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
Show
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 6:28PM
#28
|
Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2007
|
I play 2e even to this day and can whip up a character in about 10 minutes thanks to familiarity with the system. Part of what drove me away from 4e was the powers. It had the flavor of a pull-down menu that limited your choices to what you could do. For veteran players, it was no big deal. Trying to get new players into it, they had a hard time breaking the thought process of things like "Well, I don't have a power that says I can swing from the chandelier and land on the table right in front of the evil Duke Snodelmeir, so I guess I can't do it." They were very used to the limited actions of their video games and it translated all too easily to 4e. When I introduced them to 2e, the most common question was "What can my character do?" They seemed lost without a menu and it took some time to break them of that. What can your character do? What can you imagine them doing?
I don't want to have to rely on my computer and an online subscription to whip up a character. Make it fast. I'll flesh out the PC through role-playing.
Powers? Chuck 'em altogether. I don't need them. If my players want to smack a foe so hard that he reels backwards stunned and immediately jump into the space the foe had occupied a moment ago, I'll give them the appropriate die roll adjustments. How often can the PC pull that stunt? As often as I say. (Adrenaline "recharge" on a 5 or 6, anyone?)
That's a good theory on the supposed "death of creativity". It gives the bashers something else to complain about 4E.
Let me tell you about the reality.
Let's use your example the 2nd edition thief wants to jump on the chandelier swing over to Dukey boy and kick him.
So the Thief's player has to roll to jump to the chandelier, roll to swing over to him, and roll to hit him.
Damage on a kick? Nothing in the book. It's like a punch though so d4. But hey it is a kick and you do have momentum so we'll be generous and up that to a d6.
Wow three rolls to do an amazing d6.
Then the wizard busts out his pre-written spell and levels the field killing Dukey boy and all his henchmen too.
No we can jump forward to 4E.
The Rogue uses his daily to do 3[W] damage on a hit. That's 3d6.
Then the wizard uses his spell to take out the minions and finish the Duke off after he rolls to hit.
So which of those is better?
THAT is what killed creativity.
Making the martial characters jump through unreasonable hoops rolling tons of dice in a ridiculous "mother may I" scenario to do nothing while the magic users got to do whatever they pleased without even rolling anything.
Why on earth should I have to go through that?
Well Hell's bells, why not make it even easier and not jump through ANY hoops? Roll your d20. 10 or over YOU WIN! Here's the treasure you got, here's your XPs. Next module, please. Roll your d20 again...
I did not intend that 4e killed creativity with it's endless pull-down menus, but it sure as hell didn't help when dealing with players who were too used to such things. (And I'd give that kick a damn sight more than d4 or d6. I've been in enough fights to know that many improvised attacks can do a lot more damage than a dagger.) Taking away the menu choices they started thinking a hell of a lot more creatively. They started putting together things on the fly that added to the cinematics and engaged their brains creatively rather than reading a script off a card. Yeah, some of the things they pulled were readily related to a power, but the fact that they thought of them on their own without shuffling through a stack of cards to tell them what they could do gave them, as players, a more vested interest in the game. It's about more than the numbers at my table.
If you like the powers, have at them. I can take or leave them, though I'd rather leave them. Three of my players hate them having tried them, and the other two won't even look at them.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 6:36PM
#29
|
Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2011
|
Hyperbole is not conducive to rational debate, Shiftkitty.
If you want to encourage a specific behavior (in this case, improvisation), then you need to not penalize the characters for doing so. If performing an improvised action is significantly more difficult than using a basic attack (whether a 3e 'just swing' or a 4e power), then the players aren't going to do it. If you want improvisation, reward improvising.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 12, 2012 - 8:22PM
#30
|
Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2007
|
Okay, back to square one: this is how my younger players perceived things. I agree in spirit with them though not necessarily to their extreme. They will not play 4e. I have been playing since '81, DMing since '83. I think I know a couple of things about how to run a game. Since I've kept players for years, I must be doing something right. So, to repeat my opinion on the topic, fast character generation, lose the powers.
|
|
|
