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1 year ago ::
Mar 31, 2012 - 4:33PM
#101
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Well, there was no Faerie in earlier editions, so no. And the teleporting is new like every racial power.
But the origins and intent is the same. They're the magical elves, which is why they tended to replace the various grey elf equivalents in places like the Realms.
Right--eladrin are a new spin on something that was half-hearted before. I don't think anyone treated 'grey elves' as particularly different from other elves. They took 'grey elf' if they wanted a bit of a stat boost. But for all intents and purpose elves were elves (with the exception of drow which were usually pretty distinct, and aquatic elves which were just oddball and niche.) Now there is a distinct division between elves and eladrin, and the eladrin themselves are tied up in a unified concept of 'faerie' that never really existed before.
Like a lot of monsters, fey-type creatures were just thrown in the pot without any real consideration for how they fit in with everything that already existed. These unified concepts are something that was gained, and shouldn't be thrown out just as a reactionary measure.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 31, 2012 - 5:51PM
#102
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Right--eladrin are a new spin on something that was half-hearted before. I don't think anyone treated 'grey elves' as particularly different from other elves. They took 'grey elf' if they wanted a bit of a stat boost. But for all intents and purpose elves were elves (with the exception of drow which were usually pretty distinct, and aquatic elves which were just oddball and niche.)
They were treated as culturally different for the most part, flavourfully different with some mechanical differences. Which was fine as there was such a different and diverse background to what people considered "an elf". A mentioned earlier, there is an established fantasy presedent for the two different yet physically identical elves. And D&D often took that a step farther and added a third or fourth or fifth elven sub-race.
Now there is a distinct division between elves and eladrin, and the eladrin themselves are tied up in a unified concept of 'faerie' that never really existed before.
Which is fine. I don't hate the idea of eladrin or this faerie progenitors to the elven race. That's not the problem.
The problem is they took the different elven sub-races, said "sub-races are confusing, we should make wizard-elves something different" and then slapped on all the Feywild stuff. They threw on the teleporting because they needed a power and the idea of them being between worlds seemed to work, regardless of how that affected or interacted with grey elves in every established D&D world.
Eladrin are the definition of tacked on.
And, again, it's comes down to "the Reason."
It wasn't to populate the Feywild or add backstory, but because someone decided having elven sub-races was too hard for new players, who might want to be an Elron-elf and play a wizard but accidentally pick the Legolas-elf sub-race. Because new players are apparently super-dumb.
So they made eladrin. Elves for people for whom normal elves just aren't special enough anymore.
And then they went and fixed the problem with Essentials making elves +2 Dex, +2 Wis or Int. Making eladrin superflous.
Like a lot of monsters, fey-type creatures were just thrown in the pot without any real consideration for how they fit in with everything that already existed. These unified concepts are something that was gained, and shouldn't be thrown out just as a reactionary measure.
If they wanted to keep "eladrin" as the proto-elves or make them distinct, that's fine. I'm okay with that, and it makes sense that the source race all elven sub-races split from might be different, or that there might be the elven equivalent of "the missing link" still alive in the Feywild.
But they're very high fantasy and a little too magical for a lot of games, so they should definetly be optional or secondary.
But these proto-elf "eladrin" should probably look different. As different from elves and normal elves look from humans. And maybe fill the role of Faeries as you see in the work of Gaiman or Susanna Clarke or Jim Butcher. The immortal and amoral beings with strange magical powers. The inhabitants of the Feywild that do not venture to the mortal world unless summoned and keep elaborate courts (seelie and unsealie, or summer and winter).
That's cool. I dig that.
But I don't want them as the magical variant of elves, or the same power level as base races. I don't want my players Nightcrawler-ing about at first level (dependant on the heroic-ness of the campaign of course).
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1 year ago ::
Mar 31, 2012 - 6:14PM
#103
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They were treated as culturally different for the most part, flavourfully different with some mechanical differences.
Er, were they? Other than a perfunctory line in the PHB that grey elves were reclusive spellcaster elves, I can't remember them having any culture at all. They didn't even exist in Eberron, Forgotten Realms, or Dark Sun. I guess they must have existed in Greyhawk? I don't remember them having any footprint there. Even so, I would guess more has been written about 4e Eladrin culture than was ever written about Grey Elves in all the previous editions.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 31, 2012 - 6:58PM
#104
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
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Aside from the Kingdoms of Sunndi or Celene? Your memory doesn't serve you well.
And--AGAIN--I'm against throwing away either the previous versions that I enjoy OR the 4e rebranded versions that you seem to enjoy. Throwing away either is a bad move as it it's going to irk someone really bad (like how 4e irked me really bad when it threw out the reviously established lore). So, there's a solution out there and it doesn't involve getting rid of one or the other.
Playtest or get off the playtest boards.
---
I want justice for the voice that can't be heard
Vindication for every suffering and hurt
Let retribution hold dominion over earth
--Nemesis, VNV Nation
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1 year ago ::
Mar 31, 2012 - 8:05PM
#105
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They were treated as culturally different for the most part, flavourfully different with some mechanical differences.
Er, were they? Other than a perfunctory line in the PHB that grey elves were reclusive spellcaster elves, I can't remember them having any culture at all. They didn't even exist in Eberron, Forgotten Realms, or Dark Sun. I guess they must have existed in Greyhawk? I don't remember them having any footprint there. Even so, I would guess more has been written about 4e Eladrin culture than was ever written about Grey Elves in all the previous editions.
Grey, high, and wood elves were introduced in Greyhawk and are detailed in the 1e Monster Manual, if not the PHB. And Dragonlance had the Qualinesti, Kagonesti, and Silvanesti, all renamed standard elf races. The Realms had the Sun elves and Moon elves plus the wood elves, with the former two being renamed high and grey. I think they have a couple extras.
Eberron was all about tweaking and doing new things, so no surprise there. And Dark Sun was the opposite of standard D&D. I wouldn't use them as the yardstick for anything related to classic D&D.
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say? My Webcomic: 5 Minute WorkdayUpdated every Tuesday and Thursday Spoiler:
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Updated Tuesday and ThursdayRead my blog on the WotC Community Site (updated irregularly to avoid spamming the "Featured Blogger" list). You can follow me on Twitter: "@DnDJester"
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1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 1:09AM
#106
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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How do they not feel plant like? They're made of plant material, they age along seasonal patterns, they don't build things, but instead just hang out in the weather...don't get it.
It comes down to two problems:
1) Their mechanics. Wilden don't have anything mechanically to back up their flavor as a plant-race, which is odd because it's not like it's hard to come up with stuff to give them mechanically that would be evocative of their plant-like nature. Instead, all that they get is a defense bonus, which as I often complain is one of the most boring and wasteful racial features ever, and the option between three racial powers which have nothing to do with plant-ness. If they had even simply gotten the Plant keyword, things might have been different, but I doubt it because of...
2) Their extra baggage. Wilden may be a plant race, but they also have a significant amount of additional flavor baggage, and it's unavoidable exactly because it got such significant mechanical representation. If I say that I want to play a plant race and you point me to the Wilden, that may techanically be right, but it's like if I said that I wanted to play a living construct race and you pointed me to the Shard-Mind. The Shard-Mind has a lot of extra flavor baggage that shows up in its mechanics, so it can't serve as simply a living construct race. For comparison, check out the War-Forged, which has no such additional baggage.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 4:20AM
#107
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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WOTC will probably add a of of races to the PHB allowing players to convert their existing characters to 5ed. I just hope that they also add a race that is similar to the high elf.
I want to be able to play a non-teleporting Tolkien style civilized wizard elf. Otherwise the game is not D&D to me.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 6:29AM
#108
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The Realms had the Sun elves and Moon elves plus the wood elves, with the former two being renamed high and grey. I think they have a couple extras.
Eberron was all about tweaking and doing new things, so no surprise there. And Dark Sun was the opposite of standard D&D. I wouldn't use them as the yardstick for anything related to classic D&D.
From what little I recall about grey elves though, they don't really sound like moon elves at all--they sound more like sun elves, as high elves sound more like moon elves. Of course equating 'sun elf' with 'grey elf' sounds kind of silly. I think it illustrates how loose and ill-defined a concept the distinctions were though.
I don't think you can write off the other settings either. The concept of Eladrin didn't exist in previous versions of them either, but they were introduced into those settings pretty organically, and in interesting ways that never would have occurred with 'grey elves'.
Halvgrim--you can totally play an elf wizard in 4e. Since they introduced Int as an attribute option for elves, they will be a better wizard than generic elves were in 2nd or 3rd edition.
p.s. if teleporting is wrong, I don't want to be right.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 8:55AM
#109
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The Realms had the Sun elves and Moon elves plus the wood elves, with the former two being renamed high and grey. I think they have a couple extras.
Eberron was all about tweaking and doing new things, so no surprise there. And Dark Sun was the opposite of standard D&D. I wouldn't use them as the yardstick for anything related to classic D&D.
From what little I recall about grey elves though, they don't really sound like moon elves at all--they sound more like sun elves, as high elves sound more like moon elves. Of course equating 'sun elf' with 'grey elf' sounds kind of silly. I think it illustrates how loose and ill-defined a concept the distinctions were though.
I forget if sun elves or moon elves equated with grey elves. And grey elves were definitely not "loose and ill-defined a concept". Grey elves were the Elrond or Galadriel wizard elves, which is pretty damn concise and tight concept. Elegant even.
I don't think you can write off the other settings either. The concept of Eladrin didn't exist in previous versions of them either, but they were introduced into those settings pretty organically, and in interesting ways that never would have occurred with 'grey elves'.
Eladrin didn't really fit the established races if the Realms very well at all. And didn't fit the Silvanesti of Dragonlance very well either, or the grey elves of Greyhawk. They're very much a square peg.
They did fit well with Eberron as that world did have a "fearie" and didn't have 25-years of backstory that was being badly re-written. And in Dark Sun they were treated as new and distinct from elves; they made them fit the setting.But in both those cases they were added, and did not replace anything.
Eladrin work well as an additive race. But if you work with the base assumption of customization and make the elf race flexible enough to work well as both wizards and rangers then the need for eladrin vanishes. As written and presented they bring nothing new to the table, because they're such a loose and ill-defined a concept.
p.s. if teleporting is wrong, I don't want to be right.
If's fine in some games. Heroic games. 4e style games of super heroes doing action movie things.But if I'm doing low magic or survival horror then eladrin break the tone of the game. If I wanted to run something akin to Game of Thrones most races would work but the newer, flashier ones (dragonborn, eladrin, shardminds) both seem silly and damage the theme of the game.
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Updated Tuesday and ThursdayRead my blog on the WotC Community Site (updated irregularly to avoid spamming the "Featured Blogger" list). You can follow me on Twitter: "@DnDJester"
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1 year ago ::
Apr 01, 2012 - 10:15AM
#110
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2007
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I remember there being 20+ elf races, not just "elves, grey elves, aquatics and drow". I don't think it was as much about simplification as getting rid of what made the concept of elves bloated compared to ther races.
I much more prefer having shifters, wilden, goliaths, githzerai, shardminds, tieflings etc. instead of elven subraces.
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