As many of you know the recent Legends & Lore column writen by Mike Mearls discusses save or die spells. He proposes a system where save or die spells only work if you are below a certain hit point percentage.
I happen to think this is a bad idea for several reasons. 1) Screw people over who are already losing. 2) Player Metagaming - players will be trying to discern the HP of his enemies. 3) DM metagaming - this does happen. As soon as the player hits the HP threshold he will suddenly be bombarded with save or die effects.
However I do think there is a way to fix the Save or Die problem. It involves changing the spells and effects a bit, but I think I have three catagories that will fix most (90%) of the spells/effects.
1) Save, save again, or die. If you look at the spell Phantasmal Killer from 3.5 you see an odd save or die spell the few people ever complain about. What is it secrect to being powerful and balanced? Simple, multiple chances for escape. The spell requires a will save then 1 round later it requires as fortitude save and finally the target dies. See that is multiple chances for escape, Will save and a Fortitude save. And note how it is two different saves.
So for this type of Save or Die you need at least two different saves.
2) Save, delay, death. If you look at most poisons it takes between 30 seconds and several minutes for the effect to finally kill the person. In game terms that is 5 rounds or more, a lot of time in combat. This allows the party to help the affected ally, and probably save him. We can even see this in spells. Phantasmal Killer has a 1 round delay between its saves. That is a round for the party to help their buddy, and that is a huge advantage.
For this type save or die spells/effects have an incubation time before they kill the target.
3) Save or damage. Pathfinder is know for how it fixed the save or die problem. It was not save or die, it is save or damage. Most of the old 3.5 save or die spells now deal 10 damage per caster level. That is a lot of damage, but it is not a guaranteed one shot. It also gives the same effect as Mike Mearls proposed in his L&L column, if that 400 hp fighter is at 100 hp well then the level 10 wizard might just get him. But the fighter still has to fail a save.
This type of Save or Die is basically a single target fireball, save or damage.
---------- Now for most of these Save or Die options even when the target manages to succeed their save they often take some damage/effect, but it is often very little. 3d6 damage is typical. ----------
So that Medusa's gaze might take effect in any of these ways. Option One: Save, save, or die. Here the person would get a reflex save to look away in time, if he fails he then gets a fortitude save to resist the petrification. Upon failing both saves the person 'dies'. If the target succeeds the first save they take no negative effects and the second save is not needed. If they fail the first save, but make the second then they take a minor secondary effect, like 3d6 damage as some skin turns to stone, or maybe a round of blindness as their eyes start to petrify.
Option Two: Save, Delay, Death. If the target fails a fortitude save he becomes petrified over the course of several rounds, thus allowing his team (or maybe even himself) to reverse the process before he becomes a statue. Even if the target succeeds the save he might take light damage or a minor negative effect (blind for 1 round for example)
Option Three: Save or Damage. This is not a good option for the medusa gaze, but lets just to use it anyways. Here the gaze would allow the target a fortitude save. If the target fails the save they take 10 damage per caster level of the Medusa (let us use Caster Level 10 for 100 damage). So if the target dies from 100 damage they are turned to stone. If the target does not die from the damage then they only loose the hit points but not other effect happens.
I happen to think by using these three options you could convert almost any save or die spell into a quality spell that players would like to use.
Any thoughts?
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system.
You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you.
This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people
Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good"
Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good.
The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits.
Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil.
Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done.
Now that is cleared up here is a simple test.
What is the alignment of...
A Police officer:
The average Citizen:
A Vigilante:
The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society.
The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people.
The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals.
That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good.
Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.
On the "save, save again or die" front, I'd like the second or possibly 3rd save to be on later rounds in all cases. Also, the system should allow extra saves to be granted by allies (class features, feats, heal skill etc.) so that allies can be helped. In 3e the solution usually was that you can dispel the effect from the ally, but it does not really mean "extra save".
From 4e I'd copy the idea of an "extra save" granted by an ally or your own class feature that will end the effect if successful, but not have any consequences if you miss it. The rule is like this, so that helping has no chance to be harmful. Any extra saves you get before the "official last saving throw" are just extra chances to break the effect.
Usually granting a save is quite difficult, like in 4e you'd have to be adjacent, roll a heal check and spend a standard action on it. That means that it is quite "expensive" to help your allies in this way, and it is usually reserved for cases when missing the last save would really be a major threat. Some spells might grant an extra save for everyone in a particular area etc.
I like this mechanic because it lessens the need to have the perfect countermeasure up already before anything actually happens (e.g. pre-combat buffing), while still keeping things interesting because this "extra save" countermeasure is not perfect like many pre-combat buffs.
Personally, my favorite option, which I said in another thread, is split DC's.
Medusa's Gaze: Fail a save against a DC of 18 and you're dazed. But if you rolled below a DC of 12, you're petrified.
Statistically, Save-save-or-die effects are no different than just lowering the DC of the first save. So why not just do that?
It's also modular. If people don't like any kind of Save-or-die effects, they can just ignore the lower DC effect. If people love Save-or-die effects and dangerous games, they can just replace the higher DC effect with the more deadly result, and have the less deadly result occur on a successful save.
You could even use it for the Save-delay-die effects with little effort.
Personally, my favorite option, which I said in another thread, is split DC's. Medusa's Gaze: Fail a save against a DC of 18 and you're dazed. But if you rolled below a DC of 12, you're petrified.
This is a lot like those spells that have "of you fail by more than 5 then ____ also happens" It is actually a very good idea. I like it.
EDIT: I just realized that while I like this it does not solve the problem of making one bad roll and then dying. A level 20 fighter can roll a bad fortitude and loose to a level 10 caster. If he rolls a 2 or a 1 it is basically guranteed death. The benifit of double saves is the fact that if you roll two 1's in a row the dice want you to die. Plus they are two different saves so no single low save can be targeted by a clever caster. (for example a wizard would always target the will save of the fighter because it is always his lowest.)
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system.
You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you.
This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people
Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good"
Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good.
The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits.
Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil.
Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done.
Now that is cleared up here is a simple test.
What is the alignment of...
A Police officer:
The average Citizen:
A Vigilante:
The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society.
The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people.
The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals.
That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good.
Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.
Personally, my favorite option, which I said in another thread, is split DC's.
Medusa's Gaze: Fail a save against a DC of 18 and you're dazed. But if you rolled below a DC of 12, you're petrified.
I like that too.
one issue I have with 1) Save, save again, or die / 2) Save, delay, death is what happens if the monster causing the effect dies in the 1st round ? Do we carry on the effects regardless ?
Personally, my favorite option, which I said in another thread, is split DC's.
Medusa's Gaze: Fail a save against a DC of 18 and you're dazed. But if you rolled below a DC of 12, you're petrified.
I like that too.
one issue I have with 1) Save, save again, or die / 2) Save, delay, death is what happens if the monster causing the effect dies in the 1st round ? Do we carry on the effects regardless ?
Personally, my favorite option, which I said in another thread, is split DC's.
Medusa's Gaze: Fail a save against a DC of 18 and you're dazed. But if you rolled below a DC of 12, you're petrified.
I like that too.
one issue I have with 1) Save, save again, or die / 2) Save, delay, death is what happens if the monster causing the effect dies in the 1st round ? Do we carry on the effects regardless ?
What about having 2 types of SOD? Spell and monster? a: Multi round saves for the spells' effects, that don't need the spell caster to be around (if they died) and b: The medusa example where there are levels of failing, and you make one save.
I am not a huge fan of SOD, but I also think they could be a part of the game. I have always liked the idea of players fearing things once in a while, you know?
Personally, my favorite option, which I said in another thread, is split DC's.
Medusa's Gaze: Fail a save against a DC of 18 and you're dazed. But if you rolled below a DC of 12, you're petrified.
I like that too.
one issue I have with 1) Save, save again, or die / 2) Save, delay, death is what happens if the monster causing the effect dies in the 1st round ? Do we carry on the effects regardless ?
While I do like the Split DC option, I did think of a flaw. A guy way above the level of the caster can still die in 1 hit if he rolls bad, or rolls a 1. Same complaint about the whole 'one save to rule them all' of the older editions. Just something to think about.
--------------------
For the second point.
For the 1) save, save again, die the effect of caster death depends on the spell. For example in phantasmal killer the person sees a phantom that causes them to die from fear. Even if the caster dies on the first round the phantom is still around. However I could see spells where a viable way to counter them is to remove the caster from combat. An unconcious caster can't concentrate on a spell for example. However these spells would be characterized by concentration on the casters part, so the normal rules for concentration would apply.
So it only matters if the caster has to concentrate on the spell or not.
For the 2) Save, delay, death. This is an effect that is put in place on the first round. All other rounds the effect is just maturing until it kills you. Think how poison works, do you need to keep drinking the poison till it kills you? Or will one glass of poison do the trick. For the medusa example once medusa has looked you in the eyes it is only a matter of time until your body hardens into a rock, the medusa does not have to keep looking at you. The way to stop this type of Save or Die is to have the correct counter. Poison is cured by antidote, spells can be dispelled or counterspelled (finally a reason for counterspell!) etc. It would also allow for special abilites that allow second or third saves to take effect, making the ability to have multiple save a very good ability. For example the rogue's Slippery Mind class ability is good for getting a new will save on the second round. I can see a bunch of abilites like this pop up, or spells that grant them, or even a way for team members to grant them with an appropriate check.
Hope that clears it up a bit
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system.
You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you.
This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people
Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good"
Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good.
The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits.
Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil.
Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done.
Now that is cleared up here is a simple test.
What is the alignment of...
A Police officer:
The average Citizen:
A Vigilante:
The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society.
The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people.
The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals.
That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good.
Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.
Personally, my favorite option, which I said in another thread, is split DC's.
Medusa's Gaze: Fail a save against a DC of 18 and you're dazed. But if you rolled below a DC of 12, you're petrified.
I like that too.
one issue I have with 1) Save, save again, or die / 2) Save, delay, death is what happens if the monster causing the effect dies in the 1st round ? Do we carry on the effects regardless ?
Actually FTK's solution doesn't solve anything, it is still a SOD and a SOD is a SOD is a SOD. Just because it could have some lesser effect sometimes doesn't make it better. If 'miss your DC 18 check or die' is there then you save or die.
The difference isn't about STATISTICS, it is about drama and tension, and the ability to intervene. A single save or instantly die/suck gives you none of that.
As for poisons, there is virtually no poison in existence that kills instantly, that's a Hollywoodism. There are a very few that might be pretty quickly disabling, but even then you're generally talking about a timespan of minutes and I defy you to find a poison that kills in less than minutes, they pretty much don't exist in reality. In fact the VAST majority of even deadly poisons require hours or even days, if not longer, to be effective.
Really I think save or get some sort of 'disease' (and perhaps also some tactical poison effects with a save ends duration etc) is the best option for poisons, and probably not a bad option for a bunch of other things. I'd much rather see a sort of tension where you're not really SURE if you're OK or not. Yeah, the giant spider bit you and it hurts and you have a really big welt and you feel kinda sick and took some damage. Are you going to get better or worse? I find that kind of thing to be a lot more fun than "Awe, you failed your save, here's a new character sheet" nonsense. Call me evil, as a DM I want to screw with my player's heads a bit. The places PCs go and the things they meet are scary and unknown and they're messing with powerful, ancient, dangerous, and mostly UNKNOWN forces. Make them feel that. All this SOD stuff is crappy.
So that's my suggestion, long-term effects. That works well for poison, and obviously disease. It can also work for some magical effects. PCs can be cursed, haunted, poisoned, etc. For things like the Medusa the 4e solution was perfectly fine. I know somehow people have wrongly concluded that failing 2 saves before being petrified is unlikely, but it actually ISN'T in practice. The medusa in particular is doing an at-will area effect petrification attack. If the whole party isn't making saves pretty darn quick then the DM was either being nice, had cold dice, or blew it. Toss in 2 medusa and you have a very nasty and unlikely to be survivable at-level encounter.
