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Switch to Forum Live View What "core" means and does not mean
1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 8:41AM #11
Scion9
Date Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 92
I think the whole "core" thing is part of, as some folks on /tg/ like to put it, "3e ruined a whole generation of gamers."


/tg/ has traditionally hated D&D and its' fanbase.  It's a Warhammer/wargame board for the most part, and most of the TRPG talk is related to WHFRPG and Dark Heresy.  Even the 4e fans there are distinctly not fans of heroic fantasy, and sing the praises of evil (AKA grimdark) campaigns.
The only reason 4e gained a foothold there is at least partially for trolling purposes because the grognards hate it.  The 'core is best' mentality is just a meme.  Where are these mythical players that refuse to make characters with only PHB material, and only fight monsters from the first MM?  If they exist, they are certainly very rare.  The 'core is best' is an exaggeration of the complaining about 'everything is core' of 4e.  A huge exaggeration.  

What people didn't like about 'everything is core' is that a lot of the things meant to be allowed by default were previously optional material.  That is, if you wanted to make a campaign with tiefling characters or NPCs you could, but you didn't need to for every campaign.  Elves and dwarves are implicit to D&D and have been for ~30 years (and the general LotR-ripoff concept of high fantasy before that).  

In 4e if you didn't want that as the DM you had to say "no" (which you are of course never supposed to do), and if you didn't want to play in the freakshow (and increasingly freaky with every new book) implied campaign setting of 4e as a player then you had to play a different game (or a previous edition).  

The same trolls on /tg/ that came up with 'core is best' are also the kinds of players that would rather argue with the DM into allowing them to play their half-dragon kobold necromancer for the entire session rather than pick something else.  The 'everything should be allowed' mentality (and the 'everything I saw in Bleach last week should be in the game' mentality) are far more destructive (mainly because unlike the 'core is best' mentality is actually exists).
Look at the 'what did you like about 3e' thread on these forums.  The most common answer is the abundance of character creation options, and the mention of specific splatbooks that facilitated all of those options.

To the extent that the 'core is best' mentality even exists its' talking almost exclusively about flavour and setting, which isn't something that she getting significantly altered 4-6 times a year with every new supplement that contain new classes and races that are assumed to have always been a part of the setting. 
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 8:46AM #12
greatfrito
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The "core is best" mentality is not something made up by /tg/ - at all.  "Splat books are less good than core books" was a pretty damn common theme everywhere 3e discussion was had (including these forums), and "just material from the core books" was a pretty commonly discussed limitation for campaigns.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 8:51AM #13
TheMormegil
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
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Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:46AM, greatfrito wrote:

The "core is best" mentality is not something made up by /tg/ - at all.  "Splat books are less good than core books" was a pretty damn common theme everywhere 3e discussion was had (including these forums), and "just material from the core books" was a pretty commonly discussed limitation for campaigns.




Which is fun when you consider Core was likely the least balanced on books ever.

Although a special mention goes to Eberron Campaign Guide, Complete Psionic and Heroes of Horror. 

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Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 8:52AM #14
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 4,529
@Scion9
I think you are missing my point Scion9.  I'm not saying I did not ever allow non-core stuff in my game.  As DM, I can't be expected to read every book in the universe that a player might buy and want to play.  So I told my players that I had to review and approve anything outside the core books.  I've done the same rule for every edition of D&D.   In 4e, due to what I felt was a lack of options, I quickly admitted the arcane,divine,martial,primal power books as accepted core through and through.  Obviously if a book were really popular I would review it and add it to the automatically accepted pile assuming of course I accepted it.   

Reading further...
When I reject something in the core books I give the players notice at the beginning of the campaign.  I do that too.  Sometimes I just reflavor something.  My players never expected that anything was absolutely guaranteed.  They'd never show up on the first day with a character already made.  We always created characters together for a variety of reasons.   Now that doesn't mean ideas and concepts where not thought about and discussed by phone ahead of time.  





 
Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
A great blog on the business side of 4e and its impact on WOTC
4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
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metagame dissonance (plot coupon)    
dissociative mechanics (same as my own metagame dissonance. A great article.)
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 8:59AM #15
sleypy
Date Joined: Jun 1, 2011
Posts: 1,353
There are certain things that can't be inclusive because the modules are in direct conflict with each other. Like healing surges/day, armor having different AC and many other modular options. So something has to be the default option and just consider "not optional" for RPGA. So its important to know which supposed "options" are core modules to RPGA which will likely mean their core to everything else. default option =/= core, but its will be very close to meaing the same thing for people who actually take part in events. And its important since those events are reoccuring sources of income even if not directly so.
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Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 9:05AM #16
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 4,529
@Sleypy
I agree.  The first three books will have options that are 100% not compatible.  So if the definition is "accepted" by the RPGA then even the first three books won't qualify.  

I think though something > core (as it's being defined by WOTC and by me above) is a possibility.  Just not every module I agree.  They will probably err on the simple side except for classes which they will allow in in total.

 
Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
A great blog on the business side of 4e and its impact on WOTC
4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
HoBby Award Winner
metagame dissonance (plot coupon)    
dissociative mechanics (same as my own metagame dissonance. A great article.)
The Five Minute Workday Fallacy
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 9:44AM #17
sleypy
Date Joined: Jun 1, 2011
Posts: 1,353

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:05AM, Emerikol wrote:

@Sleypy
I agree.  The first three books will have options that are 100% not compatible.  So if the definition is "accepted" by the RPGA then even the first three books won't qualify.  

I think though something > core (as it's being defined by WOTC and by me above) is a possibility.  Just not every module I agree.  They will probably err on the simple side except for classes which they will allow in in total.

 



My major concern is that to make those core books compatible with RPGA they will designate options as "default". And if the "default" options get skewed heavily one way  we will be left with a situation that by default where fighters/barbarians have a niche that shrinks over time and have no role in social and exploration other then comedic relief or do nothing but stand around watching everyone else have fun.

Love 4e?  Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts
D & D: A Documentary Kickstarter (http://kck.st/SyKNzf)


Dreaming the Impossible Dream Show
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:08AM #18
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 4,529

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:44AM, sleypy wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:05AM, Emerikol wrote:

@Sleypy
I agree.  The first three books will have options that are 100% not compatible.  So if the definition is "accepted" by the RPGA then even the first three books won't qualify.  

I think though something > core (as it's being defined by WOTC and by me above) is a possibility.  Just not every module I agree.  They will probably err on the simple side except for classes which they will allow in in total.

 



My major concern is that to make those core books compatible with RPGA they will designate options as "default". And if the "default" options get skewed heavily one way  we will be left with a situation that by default where fighters/barbarians have a niche that shrinks over time and have no role in social and exploration other then comedic relief or do nothing but stand around watching everyone else have fun.




Yeah I've never done any RPGA events but after thinking about it I think you are justified to be concerned.  Someone is going to be unhappy.   Maybe they have Forgotten Realms be one way and Eberron or Greyhawk another.   If I were in your shoes though Sleypy I would be wondering.  

Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
A great blog on the business side of 4e and its impact on WOTC
4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
HoBby Award Winner
metagame dissonance (plot coupon)    
dissociative mechanics (same as my own metagame dissonance. A great article.)
The Five Minute Workday Fallacy
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:16AM #19
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
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I think some people (maybe even most?) that are using core "wrong" are probably meaning "I want X to be in the main purchased thingy, whatever that is that is replacing the normal hardbound PHB"/"I don't want to pay extra (beyond the basic purchases) to have this", and/or "I want X to be treated as an important part of the game, which gets a lot of future support".
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)
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My 4e Projects Show
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:20AM #20
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 4,529

Feb 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, greatfrito wrote:

I think some people (maybe even most?) that are using core "wrong" are probably meaning "I want X to be in the main purchased thingy, whatever that is that is replacing the normal hardbound PHB"/"I don't want to pay extra (beyond the basic purchases) to have this", and/or "I want X to be treated as an important part of the game, which gets a lot of future support".




I agree.  It's what I stated in the opening to this thread :-).  If there is confusion hopefully your post clarifies it further.

Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
A great blog on the business side of 4e and its impact on WOTC
4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
HoBby Award Winner
metagame dissonance (plot coupon)    
dissociative mechanics (same as my own metagame dissonance. A great article.)
The Five Minute Workday Fallacy
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