The bearded female dwarf thing, if I remember correctly, was suggested by Tolkien first, actually.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )
Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotesShow
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
Ahh. I see the problem here. You want him to give dwarves a fair shake.
I see them as comic relief. Always. I honestly can't think of a single literary dwarf I didn't see as part clown, ever.
Then again, I also don't expect him to, on the whole, write 'serious' fiction. I read his stuff in a manner similar to how I'd buy and eat candy.
So, what in your experience made dwarves anything other than comical for you? I am genuinely curious.
Most of the fiction I've ever read with dwarves, actually.
LoTR: Even in the hobbit, the dwarves are no sillier than anything else in the book. Even Gandalf is a bit silly. They're just people. In LoTR, Gimli is about as "comic" as Legolas. Or Agarorn, for that matter.
Guardians of The Flame, by Joel Rosenberg. Dwarves are called "The Moderate People", but believe that even moderation has it's limits, and sometimes you have to just freak right the hell out and chop some [censored] in half with a big damn axe. There is literally nothing comical about them, ever. They are better people than the elves in the setting, and worthy of respect from anyone who's paying attention to anything.
Fionavar Tapestry, by Guy Gavriel Kay: Enlightened monarchial society, as far from 2 dimentional as you can get, not comical in any way.
Outside of some DnD novels, mostly by RAS, I can't think of any comical dwarves in modern fantasy.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
My only complaint about Chewbacca's death in the Star Wars expanded universe* is that the book wasn't all that well written. It was like Data's death in that [censored] terrible Star Trak movie.
If you're going to have an important, beloved character die, make sure you've got a solid story, with a great writer.
I haven't read any of his non shared world stuff, though. And the Cleric Quintet was good. I'm just not sure he's written anything worth more than emergency toilet paper since then.
I also recently developed a new level of grudge against him because I realized how important he's been to the whole "Dwarves are scottish, and their women bearded" thing that I despise with such vociferous vehemence I'm surprised it doesn't give me ulcers.
*RAS wrote that book
I agree on the chewbacca front. However RAS cannot be blamed for Scottish Dwarves and bearded dwarven women. In the novels the first bearded dwarven women came about because of Douglas Niles in Darkwalker on Moonshae. Also other authors who have dealt with dwarves have also implied dwarven females were bearded. I wish I could remember but there was an AD&D module that showed a bunch of dwarven bearded females as well. In all the games I run Dwarven females have beards so it doesn't bother me. Dwarves are not a pretty race
Peter Jackson implied it as well. I doubt he did that because of RA salvatore. Also Gimli sounded ambiguosly scottish. At least as scottish as Bruenor sounded.
I think implying that the dwarves are scottish is something the READER does, not the author. I never thought RAS dwarves sounded scottish. It may be that I travel to Scotland so much that RAS does not seem to write proper inflections. At best Bruenor could be considered a fake scottish accent. Just because the word lassie, nay, and lad are used does not make a dwarf scottish
I picture the dwarvish language sounding far more scandanavian. Why not? That is where their mythology originates.
RAS dwarves are scottish. He may be bad at writing scottish accents and vocabulary, but his intention is unambiguous. If cannot becomes cannae, the author is trying to make the reader hear a scottish accent.
Personally, I detest inflective writing, so that doesn't help, but the inflection he's going for is obvious, even if poorly done.
And RAS has a HUGE impact on the world of fantasy, unfortunately. I wouldn't so easily dismiss the idea that Peter Jackson's presentation of dwarves could be caused by a trend which is as prolific as it is because of RAS.
The bearded female dwarf thing, if I remember correctly, was suggested by Tolkien first, actually.
It's possible, but I don't think that Middle Earth dwarven women have beards.
Either way, even JRRT can be wrong about some things. :P
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
Ahh. I see the problem here. You want him to give dwarves a fair shake.
I see them as comic relief. Always. I honestly can't think of a single literary dwarf I didn't see as part clown, ever.
Then again, I also don't expect him to, on the whole, write 'serious' fiction. I read his stuff in a manner similar to how I'd buy and eat candy.
So, what in your experience made dwarves anything other than comical for you? I am genuinely curious.
Most of the fiction I've ever read with dwarves, actually.
LoTR: Even in the hobbit, the dwarves are no sillier than anything else in the book. Even Gandalf is a bit silly. They're just people. In LoTR, Gimli is about as "comic" as Legolas. Or Agarorn, for that matter.
Guardians of The Flame, by Joel Rosenberg. Dwarves are called "The Moderate People", but believe that even moderation has it's limits, and sometimes you have to just freak right the hell out and chop some [censored] in half with a big damn axe. There is literally nothing comical about them, ever. They are better people than the elves in the setting, and worthy of respect from anyone who's paying attention to anything.
Fionavar Tapestry, by Guy Gavriel Kay: Enlightened monarchical society, as far from 2 dimensional as you can get, not comical in any way.
Outside of some DnD novels, mostly by RAS, I can't think of any comical dwarves in modern fantasy.
Never read any of those. I always found the LotR Dwarves a little more comical, only less comical than the Hobbits, actually. And yes, I'm thinking of the books.
Past that, I have to admit that most dwarvish characters I'm remembering have been in Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc. Most other stuff I've read or seen (such as most Snow White stories) also paint them in a comical light, or even a bungling one (such as the story of the argument between Thor and Arvis). Also, most other fantasy I've read just doesn't even include dwarves. So the above examples I've just never read, and thus have only ever seen the comical side of dwarves.
Or the dangerous, ugly creepy side, in some older texts. Which is kind of why I want to see Snow White and the Huntsman.
The bearded female dwarf thing, if I remember correctly, was suggested by Tolkien first, actually.
It's possible, but I don't think that Middle Earth dwarven women have beards.
Either way, even JRRT can be wrong about some things. :P
Oh no, what I meant was that it was most likely why it was adopted by early D&D writers. They were kind of aping what he had done, in small parts. At least that's my understanding.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )
Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotesShow
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
My only complaint about Chewbacca's death in the Star Wars expanded universe...
My complaint was that stranding Chewie underneath Chicxulub II was much less character-appropriate than having him go down while taking apart (yet another) kidnapping/assassination attempt aimed at Han's children.
P.S. I hope I got the quotes sorted out right.
Best complements I have yet received: Spoiler:Show
Making it up as I go along: {BRJN} If I was writing the Tome of Lore, I would let Auppenser sleep. But I also would have him dream. In his dreaming he re-activates the innate powers of (some) mortal minds. Or his dreaming changes the nature of reality - currently very malleable thanks to Spellplague &c. Or whatever really cool flavor text and pseudo-science explanation people react positively to. {Lord_Karsus} You know, I like that better than the explanations for the Spellplague.
Prepped ahead of time: I started the thread "1001 Failed Interrogation Results" {ADHadh} These are all good and make sense! I just can't come up with something that's not covered here and is not completely ridiculous.
Active Characters: LFR Half-elf StarLock6 Gondolin Nightstar AoA Dwarf Guardian Druid6 Narvik from House Wavir
Character A-building: Neverwinter Dwarven Invoker / Heir of Delzoun / worships Silvanus (!) "Truenamer" - speaks Words of Creation
Concepts I'm kicking around: "Buggy" Wizard - insect flavor on everything Halfling Tempest Fighter - just because nobody else is doing it Shifter Beast-o-phile Druid - for PoL campaign
I prefer the post plague realms to the pre plague realms, for many reasons. AFAIC, the cool npcs were a matter of novels, and those novels are just as cool for being set in the setting's past, so I don't care about that whole thing one way or the other. FR in play doesn't change for me based on what NPCs theoretically might be running around.
I've had FR DMs that used them, but not for a long time.
For me, the real difference was the lands and tone and openess of the setting, which were mostly for the better, IMO.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
You are welcome to disagree with other users, however, let's keep it polite and respectful. With your powers combined, we can keep this a pleasent environment to discuss a hobby we all enjoy.
