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Switch to Forum Live View Rule of Three - (2012 February 21st)
1 year ago  ::  Feb 20, 2012 - 9:42PM #1
trebor_rjf
Date Joined: Sep 30, 2006
Posts: 1,084
Rule-of-Three (2012 February 21st)
by Rodney Thompson

You've got questions—we've got answers! Here's how it works—each week, our Community Manager will be scouring all available sources to find whatever questions you're asking. We'll pick three of them for R&D to answer.

Talk about this news here.

 
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 20, 2012 - 11:19PM #2
M4kitsu
Date Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 847
tl;dr for those of you pressed for time:


 1  Why is Vancian magic so important for D&D and D&D Next?

It's always been there, and it's part of the "core" D&D experience, and people like playing Wizards that are complicated, and it's not a Wizard if it's not complicated.

 2  Mike, Rob, and Monte have all mentioned the difficulties encountered while hammering out the Fighter class. Could you share some of the possible paths and solutions you've explored for the fighter? 

The Fighter must be a simple-to-build, simple-to-play class and must cover all possible "martial paragon" archetypes, and it must do both well at the same time, AND it must support more complex options for players who prefer that, AND it must achieve all of this without being tied to any of the subsystems it relied on in the past, because those subsystems might not even exist.

 3  If there's something that 4E got really right, I think it's the organization and simplicity of the monster stat blocks. Is that something you'd like to continue in the next iteration of D&D?

Yeah, 4e made a lot of sense, but we also have to provide options for building monsters like they were PCs, and options for people who like templates. Monster creation has to be a "kitchen sink" thing where we have four or five different ways of building them that all have to make sense and work together.



My opinion:

  1 is so far from right that it isn't even wrong, and offers, in my opinion, fairly conclusive evidence that whoever wrote this answer doesn't understand the problems with Vancian casting at all. I really don't want to start making blanket declaratives like "if Vancian casting is in DDN, I won't play it", but I'm beginning to be of exactly that opinion. Vancian casting has never, not once, contributed to a game I've played OR run in any constructive way whatsoever. Furthermore, it cannot be balanced properly against classes that don't have it. 

  2 is being intentionally obtuse to the obvious solution to the problem: break Fighters up into multiple classes. The arcane spellcaster, as they said, can be explored by means of a number of differenct classes, so why can't the martial paragon? Why does one class have to do the job of four or five?

  3 is a pointless question. Was anyone really asking this? Attempting to integrate the rules from every previous edition is just going to create an ineffective, ugly, unplayable mess. A better idea (in fact, a better idea about this new edition period) is to throw everything out and start from scratch.

M4ki's DDN Metrics adjustment: Confidence in Design: -1 (total -5)  
-m4ki; one down, one to go

"Retro is not new.
Retro-fit is not new."

--Seeker95,
on why I won't be playing DDN


DDN Metrics (0-10) | enthusiasm: 1 | confidence in design: -3 | desire to play: 0 | Sticking with 4e?: Yep. | Better Options: IKRPG Mk II


The Five Things D&D Next Absolutely Must Not Do: Show

1. Imbalanced gameplay. Any and all characters must be able to contribute equally both in combat and out of combat at all levels of play. If the Fighters are linear and the Wizards quadratic, I walk.
2. Hardcore simulationist approach. D&D is a game about heroic fantasy. I'm weak and useless enough in real life; I play RPGs for a change of pace. If the only reason a rule exists is because "that's how it's supposed to be", I walk. I don't want a game that "simulates" real life, I want a game that simulates heroic fantasy.
3. Worshipping at false idols (AKA Sacred Cows). If the only reason a rule exists is "it's always been that way", I walk. Now to be clear, I have no problem with some things not changing; my issue is with retaining bad idea simply for the sake of nostalgia.
4. DM vs. players. If the game encourages "gotcha!" moments or treats the DM and players as enemies, adversaries, or problems to be overcome, I walk.
5. Rules for the sake of rules. The only thing I want rules for is the things I can't do sitting around a table with my friends. If the rules try to step on my ability to roleplay the character I want to roleplay, I walk. Furthermore, the rules serve to facilitate gameplay, not to simulate the world.

NOTE: Items in red have been violated.


Chris Perkins' DM Survival Tips: Show

1. When in doubt, wing it.
2. Keep the story moving. Go with the flow.
3. Sometimes things make the best characters.
4. Always give players lots of things to do.
5. Wherever possible, say ‘yes.’
6. Cheating is largely unnecessary.
7. Don't be afraid to give the characters a fun new toy.
8. Don't get in the way of a good players exchange.
9. Avoid talking too much.
10. Save some details for later.
11. Be transparent.
12. Don't show all your cards.

Words to live by.


Quotes From People Smarter Than Me: Show

"Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging..." -Foxface on Essentials

"Servicing a diverse fan base with an RPG ruleset - far from being the mandate for 'open design space' and a cavalier attitude towards balance - requires creating a system that /works/, with minimal fuss, for a wide variety of play styles, not just from one group to the next, but at the same table." -Tony_Vargas on design

"Mearls' and Cook's stated intent to produce an edition that fans of all previous editions (and Pathfinder) will like more than their current favourite edition is laudable. But it is also, IMO, completely unrealistic. It's like people who pray for world peace: I might share their overall aims, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to succeed. When they talk in vague terms about what they'd like to do in this new edition, I mostly find myself thinking 'hey, that sounds cool, assuming they can pull it off', but almost every time they've said something specific about actual mechanics, I've found myself wincing and shaking my head in disbelief and/or disgust, either straight away or after thinking about the obvious implications for half a minute." -Duskweaver on D&D Next
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 2:52AM #3
ClockworkPuck
Date Joined: Aug 16, 2010
Posts: 104

Vancian? Really? *sigh*



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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 3:08AM #4
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,667
We want to be all things to all players (well, except those silly 4e players, stuff them).  This is fundamentally more-or-less impossible, but by damn if we aren't going to try anyway.

This edition is going to be an unplayable mess if this continues.

Seriously.  When you have to say 'yes, 4e did something really really well (and I've never seen anyone argue that 4e's monster design wasn't among the best things that came out of the game as a whole), but to pull in older players we're going to intentionally do it badly, and waste our time and money writing ways to go about about doing it badly' that is a TERRIBLE design decision, and as someone who's supposed to be a professional designer, making intentionally terrible decisions should get you fired.

If someone designing a car said 'hey, in order to get all those 60s and 70s classic car drivers on board, we need to go back to no airbags, no crumple zones, no seatbelts, and leaded fuel'...  But when it's a game?  Suuuure.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 5:03AM #5
Rahashe
Date Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Posts: 229
I'm really jonesing for non-Vancian options.  Not that Vancian is bad, but I'd rather manage some version of the mana bar you find in videogames and the like.  I realize that sort of thing is harder to implement in a game like D&D, due both to issues of: 1) balancing it with other classes which have totally different systems, and 2) the math required at the table, but I much prefer it.  All the talk about modularity has got me hoping for something like this.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 5:22AM #6
Seeker95
  • Reasonably Disagreeable
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2001
Posts: 9,933
Feedback:

Vancian Casting
How the hell did the only three people in the country (world?) who still prefer Vancian casting end up employed by WotC at the same time?

Fighter Conundrum
If the problem with the fighter (the least difficult class ever) stems from trying to fit eveything that has ever been in D&D in the past into the next version of the game, perhaps that is a sign that the objective itself is the problem?

Monster Design part 1 (stat block simplicity)
Duh

Monster Design part 2 (monster classes)
Really?
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)

A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 5:24AM #7
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,667

Feb 21, 2012 -- 5:22AM, Seeker95 wrote:

How the hell did the only three people in the country (world?) who still prefer Vancian casting end up employed by WotC at the same time?



Because one of them somehow managed to inveigle his way into being in charge...

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 5:28AM #8
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 17,070
I'd just like to point out that Vancian casting and 4e's principles of balanced design at all levels are not mutually incompatible.

People tend to assume that because pre-4e casters were imbalanced, and pre-4e casters were Vancian, that Vancian causes imbalance, and that it's not possible to create a balanced Vancian casting system.

That's a rather significant assumption, and most of the extreme negative reaction to the return of Vancian stems from it.

I am a 4e fanboy, and I approve this message.
D&D Next = D&D:  Quantum Edition
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 5:35AM #9
frothsof
Date Joined: Jun 4, 2010
Posts: 10,491
please move this to the next forums, it doesnt belong in the 4e threads thanks
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 8:20AM #10
alien270
Date Joined: Dec 7, 2008
Posts: 2,038
This was the most disappointing Ro3 yet.

Question for the designers:  Do you want to make this new edition the best game that it can be, or you do you want to continue to try to pander to everyone and please no one? 

If Vancian isn't balanced I'm not going to allow it in my games.  No discussion.  The half of my old group that left D&D for Pathfinder will quite possibly decide not to play in my games.  I'm left with a game that I have to carefully scrutinize for balance issues because the designers didn't do their job, and it still isn't pleasing everyone, nor is it bringing a fractured group back together. 

Yes, this is hypothetical and is entirely dependent on the notion that Vancian will be an option, and one which the designers will try to make balanced but will likely fail.  The sub-system is too different, and access to spells and/or "power creep" in future supplements have too much potential to thrown the game out of whack.  For example, if a powerful Wizard daily is published in 4E then Wizards get 1 better power per day.  If a powerful Vancian spell is published, then Wizards use all of their high level slots to prepare the same spell, breaking whatever dubious "balance" was already in place.

Vancian can be done differently than it has been done in the past to make it more palatable, but then past-edition grognards will just complain that Vancian was changed.  You cannot please all camps when some people value balance, and others like Vancian specifically because it is unbalanced.  So far it seems like the designers are leaning toward supporting those who prefer a "Wizards rule, Fighters drool" type of game, and if this ends up being the case then a lot of people will jump ship (myself included).  If you cater to a more balanced approach, those who prefer all-powerful casters will likely jump ship. 

Consider very carefully whose side you ultimately decide to support, and when you start the playtests don't try to justify ignoring commentary, as it appears you're doing in this Ro3.

That is all.
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