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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 3:41PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2009
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The problem is, as long as there are no "automatic" spells, this feels like you're completely reliant on the GM to even have a character.
If you made a list of one spell per level per school, which every wizard with that school could use, and then had any EXTRA spells be treated like magic items, that could work. Otherwise, almost no-one will play with the wizards as written, because GMs will feel bad denying their players class features.
If the class feature is "access to this small spell list, of thoroughly balanced spells, and any other spells that you happen to find while adventuring" GMs are more likely to actually enforce it.
Kingreaper, I'll be honest: I didn't like your idea originally, as I felt it was far too restricting. But when you mentioned that finding newer spells would be like finding magic items, it just clicked. A fighter gets a new magic sword, the wizard gets a new magic fireball. Awesome. One of the best ideas I have seen on the forums.
EDIT: A clarification... I don't think it should merely be another spell you can use in that slot, because then the fighter gets magic items that augment all his attacks, and all you get is another choice of spell, but the same number per day. Either give the wizard magic items in addition to new spells, or have a certain number of "extra" spell slots he has access to, just as a fighter has "equipment" slots. A fighter can only use one pair of magic boots at a time, and the wizard can only have one learned "movement" spell (i.e. Expeditious Retreat, Fly, etc.) at a time. That way he gets a few more spells, doesn't sacrifice anything, and is limited just like the fighter in terms of how many "magic items/learned spells" he has at a time.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 3:50PM
#22
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I'm all for fewer spells in the core book provided we also get some very clear rules for spell creation.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 4:07PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Spell casters have items too... it doesnt balance out the fighter unless you make it a feature of the hero that he is the fated wielder of X and literally the object returns to him like Stormbringer and where the weapon actualy works better in his hand again like Stormbringer or Excaliber.. they are kind of manifestations of one another.
And then you have to account for characters like Lancelot and Beowulf who are simply more awesome than any magic item they ever held they overshadowed the ones they had (Lance was the superior combatant to Arthur and could beat fully competant fully armed and armored knights, naked and barehanded and Beowulf rips trolls arms out of there sockets a halfgyr able to eat the heads off mighty thanes)
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 5:01PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2008
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Very clear rules for spell creation would indeed be nice to see. Having a set list of readily available Pick-the-beginner's-tome up from the local library type spells available would be good, this is not to say get rid of all other spells, this is more have a section of beginner spells at every level, plus a selection of cantrips for wizards, and have a section describing the methods that may be used to research other spells that can be added to a caster's repitiore of spells. Bards would research a spell like Ghost Sound in a different way than a Wizard would.
I know its a poor spell example it was just the first spell that came to mind that I remember Bards and Wizards both had access to.
Honestly haven't posted in a while so I thought I might get my two bits in here.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 7:23PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Very clear rules for spell creation would indeed be nice to see. Having a set list of readily available Pick-the-beginner's-tome up from the local library type spells available would be good, this is not to say get rid of all other spells, this is more have a section of beginner spells at every level, plus a selection of cantrips for wizards, and have a section describing the methods that may be used to research other spells that can be added to a caster's repitiore of spells. Bards would research a spell like Ghost Sound in a different way than a Wizard would.
I know its a poor spell example it was just the first spell that came to mind that I remember Bards and Wizards both had access to.
Honestly haven't posted in a while so I thought I might get my two bits in here.
In 4e there are a number of rituals that are Bardic and the way we have a bard gain components? is not by purchasing residuum or incense or herbs or anything, but rather by gathering inspiration, in general he is out partying and blowing wadds of cash that accomplishes nothing else (not even creating lasting contacts... these have to be lovem and leavems usually, some bards do this anonymously or even disguised for some reason, they claim its so their bad habits dont catch up with them. But the thing gathered is not something that is stealable or resellable or that they can hand off this inspiration is otherwise just like ritual components mechanically 
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 8:16PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Suggestion: Bring back the need to find and learn spellfor the Vancian/ spell-memorization Wizard), rather than picking them out of a book at will. Thisenables DMs to control access to spells.
The problem is, as long as there are no "automatic" spells, this feels like you're completely reliant on the GM to even have a character.
I dont play the game to have the DM or random chance decide my magical fighting style thats what those kinds of rules did in 1e, want to be a pyromancer? sucks to be you .... this is what chance or the dm handed you. TRIPLE MEH.
Because of that I am ultra liberal if you want to learn a ritual either we will arrange for you to find it or you might be diverted to find a teacher but it will happen.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 8:41PM
#27
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I would like to see a very low number of base spells, maybe 3 per school per level, but those spells be mutable through research. If there are 30 spells in total but 100 ways to alter each one you then have 3000 different spells to cast.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 9:08PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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Since they seem to be going for a modular system...
Maybe the "core" rules could contain the more iconic spells - magic missile, sleep, web, stinking cloud, fireball, lightning bolt, etc. - with an optional supplement containing additional spells for those players who like to have lots of options.
In general, I do not want to see them churn out a bunch of add-on books again, but in the case of spells, I would be ok with it.
Z
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 9:12PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2012
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@GreyICE - Your argument is misplaced
time stop is a useful escape spell but it does have limits, shapechange can be fun for a creative GM. Alter self is a really nice spell for detective and spying games, polymorphs can add humor to a reckless party. Turn the party into rabbits and has the wizard turn them loose in a druids garden. Gate spells can be abused but you hold expect that from 9th level spells.
I had a party that used a magic gate to go to a spellcaster school that used portals. If anyone tried to pass through with anything but cantrips memorized they where bared entry. The player could take other classes but the ability to pass was limited to cantrips - will the 7th party took on the landsharks and fallen angels - using wands to supplement their spells.
Time stop is a useful spell to preceed hollowing out a 100ft deep pit under every enemy and filling the bottom with sucking mud that is about to turn to stone once the 3 meteorites that are positioned directly over their heads land. And fill it with a few Cloudkills to boot.
Time start, look out below and above and around you!
Alter self is very useful when you want to make yourself immune to whatever stupid enemy you're facing.
Polymorph any object is a great party trick. What else would be the point of the trick but to gain a base intellect of 30?
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Oh yeah, that.
Gutting an enemies location takes teleport - which is the most powerful spell in the game - in it's own way. Don't like your chances to win - teleport away - want to assassinate the enemy attack them in their sleep - on the other hand teleport can move a slow game forward. Time stop - buys you time. I have an NPC that uses time stop with the persistent feat to study her spells and to sleep between encounters. She once use it to build a bridge during an earthquake. You can always break a system when you try to. I wouldn't play the game with just a handful of spells and I've been playing for more then 30 years. I started with chain mail. You want really strong spell limits, I'd be looking at champions, gurps or 7 seas or 4th edition. Now I'm convinced balanced is not what is required. I have 1st level characters in games with 15th level characters. It's simple really - as long as I'm attacking in swarms or their abilities - they are equally attackable. I've been playing this way for more then 20 years. But it sounds like you think - I turn into an iron golem and you can't hurt me. Not true. Just takes creative thinking. Nets or pits is where I'd start, acid next and rust monsters after that. But turning into a creature with a super INt - I'd allow but your intelligence does not suddenly go up. You can't suddenly know more then you did before the transformation. Your abilities don't change beyond the physical. Polymorph is a important part of the game. Druids, were folk, animal folk and a number of spellcasters use those types of spells abilities often enough to completely change the game without them.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 14, 2012 - 10:08PM
#30
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Sage - I think you didn't really play 3.X with a spell churner. I actually mostly agree about over all balance, its mostly overated as indvidual players will always be the deciding factor on 'brokenness', and all game systems have weaknesses, but Time Stop wasn't 'a try to break the game' it was 'HA HA you can't stop me' spell.
There were a handful of other spells that just flat out made the game stop working, most of them weren't encountered until later in the game, but some like glitterdust were freaking 2nd level spells. (And no I am not talking about making invisible visible. Blindness at low to mid levels is a crippling affliction, and I consider the game broken when a DM is forced to create encounters not based on what Should be there, but what Needs to be there to challenge the pcs).
As for turning into an iron golem, that isn't the issue with PAO. Hell Iron Golem is child's play. Through creative use of meta-magics you can turn into ANY non-unique monsters. Some which grant game breaking (on players) powers.
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