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Switch to Forum Live View Request:fewer spells please
1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 9:53AM #1
Paraxis
Date Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 148
If 5E is returning to the older ways of doing spells and especially if monster stat blocks are going to be like 3E with a list of a dozen different spells and spell like abilities, and how I wish this were not the case from what I have seen it will be, please keep the spells per level low in number.

Easy example of a classic, don't have "Fire Ball" have "Energy Blast" let one spell stand in for more.  Make things like alarm and protection circles as rituals. 

I love the 4E stat block for monsters but if we have to take a step backwards please do it by making things more simple, with 30+spells of every level 3E was a mess and for the most part players only ever prepared the same 10 maybe of each level.  So just keep it down to those 10 or so spells but give each one options.  Make a general "Ward" spell, not protection from this and that.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 10:38AM #2
GreyICE
Date Joined: Nov 17, 2011
Posts: 731
30?

There were over 100 spells for most levels in 3.X.

70 were useless or worse than another spell in roughly all circumstances.  
10 were situationally useful and just irritated everyone by existing (knock, etc.)
16 were good and fun, and probably could be balanced if they were redone (Fireball, for instance)
4 were overpowered idiocy that should never have been printed

Yeah, I'd say around 10 spells at each level to start, and no more than 1-2 for each book (if a book adds more than 2 spells to any level, I'd pretty much ban it on sight).
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 10:56AM #3
kill_the_wiz_first
Date Joined: Jan 16, 2012
Posts: 304
The more spells the better. I don't matter if some are the same, some are useless, some are way over-the-top and unreasonable. Spells should be limited by DM, type of campaign, high/low fantasy, exploration, understanding of magic.

Spells should not be choosen each level. A caster must discover (or granted by a god) the spell(s) or research them. It's not like a caster just heads over to the local library and signs out "Wizards Spells for 4th level, A-C Vol 1."
"...spells were not created to serve the mechanics of the combat system. Many of them were sources of inspiration, cues for role playing, and served to make the game naturally unpredictable, which I think served the 'product of your imagination' concept alot better than any mechanic ever could. In fact I'd rather not have D&D next be a 'product of the mechanics' type of game ever again." ~dmgorgon

There are solutions in this world other than "Smack things around with your standard array of combat abilities" ~Tevish_Szat
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:00AM #4
GreyICE
Date Joined: Nov 17, 2011
Posts: 731
Seriously, over-the-top spells are horrid for the game and it should NOT be the job of the DM to try and figure out which one of WotC's little blocks of text is useable.  

Also your idea that the DM should spend the time to go through and individually pick out each spell that the Wizard can learn, making sure they're balanced and appropriate for the power level of the other players is in my opinion not fun for the DM. As a DM, I'm NOT going to spend more time with the Wizard than with EVERY OTHER PC COMBINED, and with spellcasting classes in 3.X, that's how my prep time went.
Moderated by ORC_Ragnar on Feb 14, 2012 - 12:51PM
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:00AM #5
sageaqua
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2012
Posts: 4

3.0 and 3.5 spells in most cases where about right I think, but the newer books I think tried to break the system - to force us to need a new set of books. I have not bought anything from 4th edition - I hate the spell system and choices. I even created a 3.0 Character that knew every single cantrip in the game. He collected them as a hobby. Idiocy was not a bad spell but it can cripple spellcasters without killing them and made a good argument for wizards to carry wands.



But as a rule - the more spells the better I think. Limiting creativity is bad move in any fantasy game. Keeping the spells balanced is a good idea. The easiest way to limit spells is to say no spells above 2nd level can be used. That way you don't deal with fireballs - which I believe was designed to fight undead and plagues.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:16AM #6
Tlantl
Date Joined: Feb 10, 2007
Posts: 504

Feb 14, 2012 -- 11:00AM, GreyICE wrote:

Seriously, over-the-top spells are horrid for the game and it should NOT be the job of the DM to try and figure out which one of WotC's little blocks of text is useable.  

Also your idea that the DM should spend the time to go through and individually pick out each spell that the Wizard can learn, making sure they're balanced and appropriate for the power level of the other players is in my opinion not fun for the DM. As a DM, I'm NOT going to spend more time with the Wizard than with EVERY OTHER PC COMBINED, and with spellcasting classes in 3.X, that's how my prep time went.





Um no! Some of us like having a huge selection of useless, over the top, or redundant spells to choose from. They're spells.

Just because you don't like them doesn't make your opinion the only one that matters.

Sit at my table and demand that you get spells when you level and I'll point you to the scrolls you found or the spell book that was in the last batch of treasure. As DM I have total control of the spells being used in the game. I have suffered through too many games where the lack of control sent things into a tailspin.

We all play at the same table. The players get to choose the direction the game goes in, but I have to write the adventures. Part of that job is to keep things moving for everyone sitting there.

Moderated by ORC_Ragnar on Feb 14, 2012 - 12:55PM
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:22AM #7
sageaqua
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2012
Posts: 4
@GreyICE - Your argument is misplaced


time stop is a useful escape spell but it does have limits, shapechange can be fun for a creative GM. Alter self is a really nice spell for detective and spying games, polymorphs can add humor to a reckless party. Turn the party into rabbits and has the wizard turn them loose in a druids garden. Gate spells can be abused but you hold expect that from 9th level spells. 



I had a party that used a magic gate to go to a spellcaster school that used portals. If anyone tried to pass through with anything but cantrips memorized they where bared entry. The player could take other classes but the ability to pass was limited to cantrips - will the 7th party took on the landsharks and fallen angels - using wands to supplement their spells. 

Moderated by ORC_Ragnar on Feb 14, 2012 - 12:57PM
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:30AM #8
Kingreaper
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2010
Posts: 1,608

Feb 14, 2012 -- 11:16AM, Tlantl wrote:




Um no! Some of us like having a huge selection of useless, over the top, or redundant spells to choose from. They're spells.
 



And if you want an unbalanced game, you can happily give level 25 spells to level 1 characters, or tell your sorcerer that if he wants to learn "light" he'll have to use a 9th level slot for it.

Takes no effort at all to unbalance a game

Whereas balancing an unbalanced game is hard.

So, I'm sorry, but the core game needs to be balanced.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:31AM #9
kill_the_wiz_first
Date Joined: Jan 16, 2012
Posts: 304

Feb 14, 2012 -- 11:00AM, GreyICE wrote:

Seriously, over-the-top spells are horrid for the game and it should NOT be the job of the DM to try and figure out which one of WotC's little blocks of text is useable.  

Also your idea that the DM should spend the time to go through and individually pick out each spell that the Wizard can learn, making sure they're balanced and appropriate for the power level of the other players is in my opinion not fun for the DM. As a DM, I'm NOT going to spend more time with the Wizard than with EVERY OTHER PC COMBINED, and with spellcasting classes in 3.X, that's how my prep time went.




Anyways I'll always stick to more spells, the better. A rather my spellcasters find ancient scrolls and spellbooks dungeon delving with a scroll containing a spell I wish to include into my campaign, or a spellbook with several levels worth of spells my caster can research. I even allow my players to learn spells not of their level... of course with a moderate or high chance of the spell doing horrible things to caster/party. I like to DM creatively but with some limitations (realism).

Moderated by ORC_Ragnar on Feb 14, 2012 - 01:00PM
"...spells were not created to serve the mechanics of the combat system. Many of them were sources of inspiration, cues for role playing, and served to make the game naturally unpredictable, which I think served the 'product of your imagination' concept alot better than any mechanic ever could. In fact I'd rather not have D&D next be a 'product of the mechanics' type of game ever again." ~dmgorgon

There are solutions in this world other than "Smack things around with your standard array of combat abilities" ~Tevish_Szat
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:39AM #10
AnthonyJ
Date Joined: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 1,530
The major problem with more spells is that it creates more opportunities for bad ideas to slip through the cracks, and spells that aren't bad ideas have a tendency to look very similar to one another, with slightly different flavor text. However, as long as spell books are extensively limited, I don't really care if there's a wide variety of roughly equally useful ways to fill those books.
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