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Feb 13, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Gnarl wrote:

Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. I just remembered being more excited about getting a new level in the former editions than in 4th edition. 

You must have been more excitable when you were younger.
Prior to the late 1st edition proficiencies, there were few things for non spell-casters to look forward to. Thieves skills slowly improved, and at name level you got followers. For wizards, you had a new chance to learn those spells you had found and failed to learn, and every other level you could try and learn spells from a higher level (if you had found any.) At some levels, for some classes, you got features (such as new forms for a Druid's shapechange.)
In 2nd edition, you had proficiencies, but there were still levels where nothing interesting happened. (No proficiency, no spells.)
In 3.x, many classes still had a lot of dead levels. For example, most of the odd fighter levels.
In 4th edition, every level gets something, either a feat or a power.  

Feb 14, 2012 -- 7:45PM, Rhenny wrote:

I think that the game would play more like cinematic fantasy and classic fantasy novels like Lord of the Rings if the math were flatter.  In those stories, encounters with any hostile creature seems dangerous...wild dogs, Orcs, Goblins, etc.  With steep math, those creatures are basically out of the picture within 1-4 levels.   I like the idea of having monsters "usable" (without scaling) for longer.  

The most important statistic that I think needs to be flattened and made more finite is AC.   I think it is important for story, description and combat purposes to keep AC more dependent on type of armor or natural armor a creature wears.  If a creature has a plate-like carapace give it an AC of 20, 21 or 22.   If it has leather hide, give it 13, 14 or 15 (depending on Dexterity).   I hate having to justify why a lightly armored higher level monster in 4e has an AC of 32.  This is where the scaling really bothers me and some of my players.  Scaling AC also makes it impossible for a party of 5th level adventurers to combat against a 10th level creature that has huge scaled AC (especially if the party does not have bonuses to hit from magic, etc).  I truly believe that PCs should feel as if they have a chance against higher level creatures (even if it is a long shot).   

To make AC more finite, it will be necessary to limit "to hit" bonuses, but that's ok.  I think it will improve the feeling.  Also, DMs can always add bonuses through items or fiat.  It is much easier to add then take away. 

I like where you are going with this. I think flatter AC progression would be helpful too. If the math could be flattened to the extent that the "to-hit" roll stays in the range of 1-20, I would appreciate it. Scaling AC seemed incongrous to me because you could be wearing chain mail, have a 15 Dex and the next level your AC would go up automatically.

Many would say that this is abstraction that your character can "avoid" hits better and optimize their armor better. My argument is that the abstraction for that is already handled with increasing hitpoints (since HP are not specifically physical wounding).

Maybe HP stays more or less static and defenses climb instead, but to have both seems to be double dipping the abstraction IMO.

Feb 14, 2012 -- 7:52AM, Garthanos wrote:

Feb 14, 2012 -- 7:31AM, Gazra wrote:

  I don't want to deny anyone of their preference. 

That is why there are different tiers of play... and honestly the original D&D reaked of god wizards.. I can think of one heroic god wizard in fantasy... his name was Ged (one letter off of God) and in the first or second chapter of the story he created his own satan too... I am just saying while I agree I like a lot of down to earth fantasy, wish spells and flight and teleport spells and so on? really? how are you thinking they at all belong in your toned down advancement.
And I think playing Bleach with D&D would be great.. so the not-anime thing is just exclusionary.

Using tiers to separate these two styles of play isn't exactly fair. It lets people who prefer super-powered heroes play characters up to level 30, while those who prefer heroes more based on traditional fantasy literature can only play characters until 10th level. The problem could be solved by having an optional Epic Destiny module that, when applied, layers on top of your character, providing extra bonuses at certain levels. 

I'm not talking about spells. I'm specifically talking about how characters gain a few levels, and can then sleep soundly an safely for eight hours while being attacked by a horde of monsters that they were scared to fight a few weeks before. That's obviously hyperbole; however, the point still stands that the insane rate of power-gain from leveling has seriously gotten out of hand in this game.

If you want to talk about spells, we can do that too. I think it's fine to have spells that do outrageous things so long as the character casting these spells is not allowed to cast them at-will and prepare too many of them each day. As long as there exists a balancing factor and no spell or combination of spells is allowed to give a character god-like powers, it's all fine. Invisibility? Sure, but only until you attack. Want to fly? Okay, but you can do it once per day and only for a limited amount of time or distance. Teleport? Fine, but but if you want to go more than thirty or so feet, you have to spend gold and spend an hour casting a ritual.

To me, it's the encounter power that has messed up wizard magic. Making certain effects that were once daily into powers that can be used once every five minutes has really changed the way magic feels. And 3.5 and 4E started and emphasized a huge push toward making the point of having a character filling in slots with magical items until you had a complete set. When you have 16+ feats, 12+ magic items, 19+ powers, and several features and bonuses from your race, theme, class, path and destiny, you can't not end up with a god-like character incapable of dying without making each of those 50+ character elements give increases so tiny that you would barely notice gaining one. 

To me, it seems the problem is giving characters too many things, and wanting to give them at least if not more than one at each level over a span of thirty. I think we could take a good 25 of those 50+ elements and put them into an optional module which can be layered over normal progression to produce super-powered characters for people who like playing them. To me that sounds like a good way to give each type of player the style of play he or she wants without taking anything away from anyone. You could even have low, medium and high powered options for more diversity. 

Feb 14, 2012 -- 8:31PM, Warrant wrote:

I like where you are going with this. I think flatter AC progression would be helpful too. If the math could be flattened to the extent that the "to-hit" roll stays in the range of 1-20, I would appreciate it. Scaling AC seemed incongrous to me because you could be wearing chain mail, have a 15 Dex and the next level your AC would go up automatically.

Many would say that this is abstraction that your character can "avoid" hits better and optimize their armor better. My argument is that the abstraction for that is already handled with increasing hitpoints (since HP are not specifically physical wounding).

Maybe HP stays more or less static and defenses climb instead, but to have both seems to be double dipping the abstraction IMO.

Exactly this.  HP do not equal wounds, they equal staying power in a fight (including some wounds).  1e had AC that fluctuated between 10 and -10.  I would not object if the AC range were slightly broader than that but a limited range is a very good idea IMHO.  If everything else is covered by hp you can have heavier armours with low level damage resistance 1/2/3 for starters, maybe with a minimum of 1 damage so level monsters still do some damage on a hit.  If they front load level 1 like in 4e (say x hp plus your Con score, I would even be happy to see random hp up to name level followed by low standard hp like 1e/4e.