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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 8:05PM
#11
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Because, for whatever reason, you do not have access to the skill. If you do then it should be preferable to use it rather than it being inherently made redundant by Mr. Pointy Hat.
Ok so suppose you have the skill or access to it.
Why would you choose the magical alternative?
That's the entire point. You use it when you don't have access to the skill, you don't toss it around to step all over someone else's gig.
Well I won't claim to be one of those persons that speaks for a majority of players.
In my own experience the ritual and utility magics in 4th edition where so marginalized by being inconvienant to use and trivial in effect there was no reason to use them what so ever.
I never saw a use for a ritual or experienced any situation that couldn't be changed with a skill challenge or roleplay narrative. We open a portal to destination X, we take a boat to destination X (boat is cheaper, so what if it's slower the adventure doesn't start till we get there one way or another.)
I don't see a way to keep magic relevant when it has restrictions like that.
If it is just as good as skill there's no reason to use it instead of a skill. Especially if a skill can be attempted many times quicker and free of charge. This makes skills better than magic. Which is fine. As I said in 4th Edition I ended up using my skills alot more than my other abilities. But it did not feel like D&D or magical to me.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 10:18PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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Well that's the point. You don't want the magic to be better than the skill or else magic suddenly trumps everything and non-casters no longer matter. At the same time, it lets you step in and fill the gap if someone doesn't have that skill.
Now I will be the first to admit that rituals needed some tweaking in 4e to encourage their use. They cost too much for one. However, handing out ritual components as part of the treasure parcels or letting the characters harvest components from monsters (scales of a dragon, eye of a harpy, whatever fits the ritual they are using it for) helps with that. I also allow characters to make an Arcana check and spend a healing surge to speed up the casting time. It increases the versatility of rituals, but since there is extra cost with doing so they aren't likely to abuse them.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 10:43PM
#13
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Ok and that works for you.
As it is there is absolutely no reason to use a ritual other than saying "It cost an arm and a leg and took all day but I did it with magic."
Woop de do.
CCould have done it several more times for free without magic.
There's no incentive to use it. There's no upside.
Magic should inspire a feeling of "why wouldn't I do it that way?" Instead of why bother to do it.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 10:51PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Ok and that works for you.
As it is there is absolutely no reason to use a ritual other than saying "It cost an arm and a leg and took all day but I did it with magic."
Rituals for teleporting across contentents, ones that make the entire group able to breath water, ones that create a set of flying steeds shrug they go beyond the scope.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 11:03PM
#15
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Ok and that works for you.
As it is there is absolutely no reason to use a ritual other than saying "It cost an arm and a leg and took all day but I did it with magic."
Rituals for teleporting across contentents, ones that make the entire group able to breath water, ones that create a set of flying steeds shrug they go beyond the scope.
Teleporting across continents "to a specific location" and since it is done entirely out of combat there is no drama in it's use. We open a portal to destination X, we take a boat to destination X. Same in game goal, much more reasonable in game cost.
Breath under water how often is that going to come up? If it does it's an obvious plot device. It's too slow to use in an emergency like the boat is sinking or the cave is flooding.
Flying mounts again out of combat travel. It really doesn't matter how the PC's get to a destination and can be covered from roleplay narrative or skill challenge or just saying "after some travel you arrive at..."
Where's the upside? What's my motivation for using that?
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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 11:20PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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It's too slow to use in an emergency like the boat is sinking or the cave is flooding.
Apparently the athlete swimming will get his time to shine if you didnt cast it before getting on the boat in the morning it can last a long time and is actually pretty cheap. pre-planning a bit you know.
The flying castle is easier to raid on flying mounts. A different route to accomplishing that is what? stowing away on something that was going to the castle it certainly changes the feel and flavor of what you are doing.\
Oh I see if it isnt done in combat it isnt worth anything.... gotcha... how honest of you.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 11:33PM
#17
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These are all plot devices.
These are examples of the D.M saying you must spend X resource to get here. It is forced upon the players. There is no spontaneous creativity.
You can not approach the situation and at a moment notice have a solution for it.
I understand that is how you like magic. As plot device back drop, and something that expands the story without intruding on the combat. That's your style. It isn't wrong. But it isn't for everyone either.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 03, 2012 - 11:41PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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I understand that is how you like magic. As plot device back drop, and something that expands the story without intruding on the combat. That's your style. It isn't wrong. But it isn't for everyone either.
There is plenty of magic in combat... ranging from walls of fire to greased up floors to improvised moves involving heating the enemies weapons instead of attacking them.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 04, 2012 - 6:02AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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So basically what I'm gathering here is "it's not magic unless it's better than everything else", which isn't much of a justification on its own.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 04, 2012 - 6:13AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> As it is there is absolutely no reason to use a ritual other than saying
> "It cost an arm and a leg and took all day but I did it with magic."
It's worth noting that there was an article a few months back that updated a couple of dozen lower level rituals to reduce the casting cost and time. While "Knock" wasn't among them, if it followed the pattern of the others then it would probably take one minute rather than ten. The listed cost of "35 gold and one healing surge" might stay the same or might have the gold portion reduced a bit, but given that you're probably only doing this if you REALLY need to open the lock without making a lot of noise - otherwise you can just break it open - that's a reasonable cost.
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