So, as more information comes out, one of my concerns is part of what was discussed during the DDXP about classes, and those being common, uncommon, rare, etc, and DMs being able to restrict classes etc.
First off, there's nothing that EVER stopped a DM from saying that he didn't allow X Class.
That being said, one of the GREATEST things for me, and mind you - I've been a very long-time 'world-builder' style DM that creates my story and graciously allows you to play in it, is that 4th Edition broke me away from the DM-centric play experience (that satisfies one player at the table) to being a Player-centric DM that strives to bring entertainment to everyone at the table.
4E just ended up braking so many 'grognard' sacred cows for me - restricted race/class lists, restricted magic items, DM-centric gaming, etc. that I developed from three decades of playing other versions (primarily AD&D and 2nd) that I'm not looking forward to going back to a system that openly promotes this style again. I know that there are no Wizards-police to show up to my house and force me to play the 5th Edition way, but this sort of focus tends to be self-fulfilling. I so much prefer 4E's approach to "If we print it, it's core".
D&D Next has some really big shoes to fill, as far as I'm concerned. I'm hopeful and looking forward to the testing, but I still have a lot of love for 4th.
I'm sorry but I'm a little confused here. What do you mean by DM-centric gaming?
here's my delima. i started tabletop gaming almost exactly a year ago. my first experience was with 4e. i had purchased the red box starter set which i very much enjoyed (despite the fact that poised assault and battle furynever made it out of that set.
so here i am; started a group with others who learned both d&d and 4e with myself. ive played several times, dm'd even more. i love this game, i really really do.
honestly, im still learning the system. we all are. and right when im in the middle of converting ravenloft into 4e and inviting another member to the group anmd getting ready to post the meetup on our meetup group, news of 5e reaches my ears.
first thing im thinking is, now im going to be playing something obselete.
Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons!
I've been playing D&D for 27 years. I've played every edition. I love 4th Edition but I still play Pathfinder with friends every Friday. Play the games you enjoy. I love the New World of Darkness and run a MtA game every Thursday. I was happy with the changes White Wolf made and switched. If 5e is really good then play it. If you don't like it then don't. For me, 5e has to be REALLY frikken good because it has to compete with 3.75 and 4e.
Don't worry about 4e disappearing. As a gamer, there is a sense of loss in the fact that there will be no new 4th Edition stuff. Don't think of it like that. It's difficult for me think I'll be "left behind" but in reality, this is my game and I'll find or build a group to play it. I'll also build the campaigns we need to play. You're talking about converting 3e Ravenloft, I've converted more 1e and 2e modules to 4e than I did with 3.5 because older ed monsters are so similar to 4th Edition. The older edition monsters allowed for big, multi-monster fights, which 4e was designed for and 3x was not. There's really no effort in converting old modules. Many you can find in the used bins at a local gamestore. I recommend anything by Sean Reynolds (The Silver Edition remakes are brilliant). The point is, for me 1st Edition and 2nd Edition never disappeared. It lives on in the modules I converted and run in a system I love.
Fourth Edition in my world is still alive because of me and my Saturday players, and that's what this is about. A game doesn't die until we stop playing it. Palladium has never been out of print but, for the most part, that game is dead. The game is about players, not companies. It's about communities, not corporations. Keep playing and the game will stay alive.
I've been playing D&D off and on (mostly on) since 1982. Here are some of the things I'd like D&D Next to be and NOT to be:
1. Fewer states and/or conditions--they are a nightmare to track
2. Although I really like the tabletop action that 4e makes almost mandatory, I would like the ability to play without a battle mat or a grid.
3. Fewer class options--I know some people like them, but books upon books of dozens of classes are things that tie up production for more interesting things like: monsters, settings, adventures, etc.
4. I think this is a losing battle, but, returning to Vancian magic is a huge mistake. I clearly remember the days when it was a part of D&D, and I found it annoying, especially at lower levels, because unless the wizard had tons of scrolls or other items, he was nearly useless after he was spent. The at-will and Encounter powers of the 4th edition solved this and made the wizard a much more enjoyable and non-disruptive class to play.
5. I'd really like to see--and have no problems paying for--more modules! Remember the early to mid-80s when there was a constant stream of published adventures? I loved that, as I'm sure did others. Maybe combined with your or "a" VTT, you could sell them online with digital map-packs for the modules, so that they could be easily utilized by the VTT!
6. Please don't return to damage types/accuracy/weapons speed/armor types and all that nonsense. I never DMed or played in a game that used them and the inevitable charts and tables that come with them are wasted space.
7. Get rid of the Bard, please.
8. Get rid of the eladrin and just call them all elves again.
9. Rituals are pretty cool, but should be changed to high-level magic (ala 2nd Editions Combat Options: Spells & Magic--specifically the 10th level spell chapter). Bring back cool utility spells like Knock and Raise Dead. Casting times of 10 minutes + for formerly simple spells is just aggravating.
10. No return to Prestige classes, but please keep in place the Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies of 4th edition.
Well, what I am thinking as a 4e fan right now? I am all for new editions in due time. But if they are going to be cranking them out at this rate from now on, I am not willing to spend a lot of money on 5 e, if 6e is just around the corner after that. I don`t want to learn a new system every five years! This is my hobby, not my dayjob, there are limits to how much I can invest in it.
What I want in any rpg is a system that is gm friendly and smooth running. I love minions and skill challanges(although number of characters should be relevant, just as in a combat encounter. A new edition should have something that new players can just pick up and play, like sample characters for each class and a starting encounter. A very simple core mechanics would be great, and optional rules can come later. Narrative aids and improv aids for dm`s(and players?) should be released as products, and maby guids to build, adjust or reskin monsters, races and classes.
It is. The GSL is much more restrictive than the OGL, WotC can quash any 3pp 4e products or clones. There's not going to be any sort of Pathfinder eating away at 5e sales. Well, except Pathfinder, if 5e doesn't slavishly deliver everything the 3.5 hold-outs want (and want gone).
The GSL is not necessary. Now clones is more of a gray area, you might be able to get away with it but it might be risky, but supplements you could absolutely do without the GSL.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
So, as more information comes out, one of my concerns is part of what was discussed during the DDXP about classes, and those being common, uncommon, rare, etc, and DMs being able to restrict classes etc.
First off, there's nothing that EVER stopped a DM from saying that he didn't allow X Class.
That being said, one of the GREATEST things for me, and mind you - I've been a very long-time 'world-builder' style DM that creates my story and graciously allows you to play in it, is that 4th Edition broke me away from the DM-centric play experience (that satisfies one player at the table) to being a Player-centric DM that strives to bring entertainment to everyone at the table.
4E just ended up braking so many 'grognard' sacred cows for me - restricted race/class lists, restricted magic items, DM-centric gaming, etc. that I developed from three decades of playing other versions (primarily AD&D and 2nd) that I'm not looking forward to going back to a system that openly promotes this style again. I know that there are no Wizards-police to show up to my house and force me to play the 5th Edition way, but this sort of focus tends to be self-fulfilling. I so much prefer 4E's approach to "If we print it, it's core".
D&D Next has some really big shoes to fill, as far as I'm concerned. I'm hopeful and looking forward to the testing, but I still have a lot of love for 4th.
It sounds to me like 3e did more to break your sacred cows than 4e did. 4e was in fact a return to a more DM-centric approach (even if it didn't go as far as 2e and earlier).
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
To the OP, DDI will drop 4E despite what WotC has said. There is no 3.5 or AD&D articles in Dungeon or Dragon online magazines. The downloadable CB was buggier but better than the Silverlight one and that got dropped for the new. If this is part of your 4E experience, as it is for me, then you should make plans to adjust your experience. You can still do everything by hand!
I honestly don't know how 4e players new to D&D know how to do much of what I learned playing 2nd edition. Playing more D&D only makes your D&D experience better, if only to get you to customize D&D to your group. If you just read the 5th PHB and DMG, and went back to 4E I bet your game would be better for it. I think it's awesome you tread into 3.5 to pluck Ravenloft content for your 4e game! But like I said, 5th should explain itself well enough that you don't need to know AD&D to play it just like 4e did. For me, switching from 3.5 to 4e was tough because of my presumptions. We still call it a five foot step instead of shift and forget there's not AoO for standing up.
My group is gonna play 5th when it comes out. We're moving forward, because that's what we do. That, and I doubt we'd agree on which previous edition to play, lol.
4E is not going to stop being fun. But WotC's support for it will end, they can barely support one edition at a time. And WotC minis are cool, but there is a whole world of minis beyond prepainted plastic from WotC!
To the OP, DDI will drop 4E despite what WotC has said. There is no 3.5 or AD&D articles in Dungeon or Dragon online magazines. The downloadable CB was buggier but better than the Silverlight one and that got dropped for the new. If this is part of your 4E experience, as it is for me, then you should make plans to adjust your experience. You can still do everything by hand!
I honestly don't know how 4e players new to D&D know how to do much of what I learned playing 2nd edition. Playing more D&D only makes your D&D experience better, if only to get you to customize D&D to your group. If you just read the 5th PHB and DMG, and went back to 4E I bet your game would be better for it. I think it's awesome you tread into 3.5 to pluck Ravenloft content for your 4e game! But like I said, 5th should explain itself well enough that you don't need to know AD&D to play it just like 4e did. For me, switching from 3.5 to 4e was tough because of my presumptions. We still call it a five foot step instead of shift and forget there's not AoO for standing up.
My group is gonna play 5th when it comes out. We're moving forward, because that's what we do. That, and I doubt we'd agree on which previous edition to play, lol.
4E is not going to stop being fun. But WotC's support for it will end, they can barely support one edition at a time. And WotC minis are cool, but there is a whole world of minis beyond prepainted plastic from WotC!
Oh I think they will keep supporting it. Of course, that depends on your definition of support. I take that to mean that you can keep paying your subscription and keep getting access to 4e tools. I don't think it means that there will be regular updates or regular 4e material in the online mags. WotC would be stupid not to do that. It doesn't cost them anything other than server space to keep hosting the 4e tools that they already developed, and it's a steady source of income for those willing to keep paying for them. Otherwise, that income will be lost because 5e is clearly targeting the non-4e crowd and despite their claims, I expect there will be a significant number of 4e holdouts. Keeping DDI services going is win-win for WotC.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Right now? Disappointment and apathy. I'll tell ya why.
Deep down, I feel like WotC caved to all the outside influences saying they didn't like their game, and figured they wanted to bring them back to the table OVER keeping their current fanbase. Every time a developer has made statements about 5e, it was always about "getting to the core of D&D" or "not letting the system tell you how to game". It's not "providing a balanced system that feels like the original" or "combining the best parts of 4e with the rest of the games". 4e is treated as the "red-headed stepchild" so to speak. They're so worried about scaring off the people they lost, they ignore their current fanbase.
Mearls and Cook are known to be massive "old school" fans. I think they feel that it was the heyday of D&D BECAUSE OF the mechanics. Like, the specific mechanics, not what they intending to do. Of course, they want to go back to that, as they want to sell more than ever.
Without seeing mechanics, I'm very worried this will merely be a retro-clone, and D&D will never advance past the 80s. I haven't been a D&D fan very long, but I do like it. So, to see it slide back towards outdated, clunky mechanics?
Right now? Disappointment and apathy. I'll tell ya why.
Deep down, I feel like WotC caved to all the outside influences saying they didn't like their game, and figured they wanted to bring them back to the table OVER keeping their current fanbase. Every time a developer has made statements about 5e, it was always about "getting to the core of D&D" or "not letting the system tell you how to game". It's not "providing a balanced system that feels like the original" or "combining the best parts of 4e with the rest of the games". 4e is treated as the "red-headed stepchild" so to speak. They're so worried about scaring off the people they lost, they ignore their current fanbase.
Mearls and Cook are known to be massive "old school" fans. I think they feel that it was the heyday of D&D BECAUSE OF the mechanics. Like, the specific mechanics, not what they intending to do. Of course, they want to go back to that, as they want to sell more than ever.
Without seeing mechanics, I'm very worried this will merely be a retro-clone, and D&D will never advance past the 80s. I haven't been a D&D fan very long, but I do like it. So, to see it slide back towards outdated, clunky mechanics?
Feels bad, man.
In the transcrips when they talk about 4th edition they always seem to be talking about essentials. so it indeed seems they abandoned 4th, and that 5th will be a mix of essentials and 3.x
also note that essentials was the latest products they put out some where produced when they where already thinking about 5th edition.
they hope the amount of essentials that will be in 5th will be enough to win over the 4th edition fans.
