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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 8:46PM
#111
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Date Joined:
Jan 26, 2010
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I generally play with adults and include adult themes in game. I don't need those themes explained in my core rule books. 5th ed can stay PG 13 and let me (independantly or with optional adult themed releases) add as much adult content in as my gaming group is comfortable with.
That being said, I don't consider bare breasts or casual nudity in fantasy art work as adult only. I don't need gratuitous nudity but full expect to see my nymphs and satyrs mostly uncovered.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 9:59PM
#112
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I generally play with adults and include adult themes in game. I don't need those themes explained in my core rule books. 5th ed can stay PG 13 and let me (independantly or with optional adult themed releases) add as much adult content in as my gaming group is comfortable with.
That being said, I don't consider bare breasts or casual nudity in fantasy art work as adult only. I don't need gratuitous nudity but full expect to see my nymphs and satyrs mostly uncovered.
This.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 10:19PM
#113
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Date Joined:
Aug 23, 2007
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I generally play with adults and include adult themes in game. I don't need those themes explained in my core rule books. 5th ed can stay PG 13 and let me (independantly or with optional adult themed releases) add as much adult content in as my gaming group is comfortable with.
That being said, I don't consider bare breasts or casual nudity in fantasy art work as adult only. I don't need gratuitous nudity but full expect to see my nymphs and satyrs mostly uncovered.
This.
Seconded. Though I personally feel that PG-13 would be a step up from most 4e material, which though it isn't exactly devoid of "naughty" bits is fairly tame.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 6:32AM
#114
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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A book of adult content would be a book explaining how your lord can leverage his untilled farmland to increase his resources and thereby expand his holdings without having to agree to usurious interest. It would tell the wizard how he can address the council of archmages and lobby for a change in the laws of Austerland to reduce tariffs on arcane ink. An adult book would delve into the philosophical underpinnings of the Churches of Pelor and Vecna and describe how their differences come down to a subtle but crucial distinction in the definition of Astral Divinity.
Because "adult" is about being a grown-up and taking responsibility for one's life.
Maturity does not mean rules for divinations cast using different parts of the humanoid body extracted through extreme torture. Maturity does not mean gaining power by wearing someone else's skin. Maturity does not mean engaging in lewd acts one might see on a George Romero version of a goth rave.
What people are asking for is a book of adolescent content, a book of prurient content, or, at best, a book of bohemian content. It's not "mature" in any respect except that societal conventions would demand that it be restricted to "mature" audiences. Except of course, truly mature people would want to have nothing to do with the content inside, so, like all "Mature" labels, it's really for immature people of a adult physical age.
And, no, I don't think it's really something that should be in D&D.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 8:10AM
#115
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- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Hero Artisan Gold Medalist
Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2004
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A book of adult content would be a book explaining how your lord can leverage his untilled farmland to increase his resources and thereby expand his holdings without having to agree to usurious interest. It would tell the wizard how he can address the council of archmages and lobby for a change in the laws of Austerland to reduce tariffs on arcane ink. An adult book would delve into the philosophical underpinnings of the Churches of Pelor and Vecna and describe how their differences come down to a subtle but crucial distinction in the definition of Astral Divinity.
Because "adult" is about being a grown-up and taking responsibility for one's life.
Maturity does not mean rules for divinations cast using different parts of the humanoid body extracted through extreme torture. Maturity does not mean gaining power by wearing someone else's skin. Maturity does not mean engaging in lewd acts one might see on a George Romero version of a goth rave.
What people are asking for is a book of adolescent content, a book of prurient content, or, at best, a book of bohemian content. It's not "mature" in any respect except that societal conventions would demand that it be restricted to "mature" audiences. Except of course, truly mature people would want to have nothing to do with the content inside, so, like all "Mature" labels, it's really for immature people of a adult physical age.
And, no, I don't think it's really something that should be in D&D.
I disagree. I don't think people are not asking for an adolescent content. What your describing as adult is most people's everyday life which most people handle fairly maturely. Drama, on the other hand is can be war, slavery, sexual mistreatment, tough decisions made with no easy answers,.....i.e. things most of us don't encounter in RL (thankfully) and adults who function well doing what you describe as adult may or may not fail at and more subversively, someone who has not done well in day to day RL may even excel at.
Adolecent is about titilation. Drama is about wondering if you are going to live to the next day and wondering if the people next to you will. Think about the Tudors, Battlestar Galactica (re imagined), Game of Thrones, Doctor Who, ask who we are in difficult circumstances where there are moral shades of gray, just as there are in adult RL. Vampire the Requim/Masquerade is about titalation/power fantasies very often. D&D very often regardless of edition can be about how characters handle gray areas.
4e fluff IMHO some cases like the simplified alignment system, the crunch, have backed away from questions like, can that Drow be redeemed, how does an interspecies romance work and what is the effect on half elf/orc children (and what it's like to be them), what to do with captives, what do about a tyrant etc, (paizo has backed off, though not as far as well). All of these are what I think about when I talk about adult/mature themes.
I would want some of that back in 5e in the form of written adventures, spells/rituals etc. By that I mean meaningful adult choices rather than black/white 'we are the good guys' childish morality.
As for art, I would suggest something like below, like wha Paizo does, where war, slavery, infernal bargins, poverty, systemic collapse etc are acknowledged to exist but not glamorized.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMaYzBrbqaM
Basically, I want a pg-13 default.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 9:12AM
#116
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I disagree. I don't think people are not asking for an adolescent content. What your describing as adult is most people's everyday life which most people handle fairly maturely.
Yes. Most people's adult lives are what is adult.
Drama, on the other hand is can be war, slavery, sexual mistreatment, tough decisions made with no easy answers
That's not what has been discussed on this thread, and I don't think that's what most people using the words "adult" and "mature" are seeking.
Let's look at the posts in this thread who are asking for more "adult themes":
Post one: "sexual objectification", "sex and violence", and a "politically incorrect semi-subversive hobby".
Post 3: Asks for male beefcake in equal amounts of female cheesecake.
Post 8: Says there's a place for "hardcore violence and sex".
Post 12: "sex and violence tend to be HUGE parts" of the tv series he wants to emulate
Post 13: "Adding in boobs and bulges later is far preferable to having a 'Junior Edition'"
Post 42: "there is nothing wrong with cleavage, upskirts, skantily clad women (or men for that matter), or reveling in the human form in an artistic fashion"
Post 49: "I personally would favor the artwork of DnD 5E going in a more adult direction"
Post 72: "Creatures as nymphs, dryads, succubus/incubbus, etc have a decidely erotic flair to them and I did not like how 4E tried to pan this over."
Post 75: "Having some holebi characters in the cast of iconics or general storylines would be so cool."
And the rest is people who don't want more "adult" or "mature" themse (using the definition advocated by the people above, and whole side discussions of (i) artwork depciting same-gendered couples (ii) the definition of pornography, the (iii) objectification of women in fantasy art, (iv) ciriticizing World of Darkness, and (v) Jack Chick.
Only three posts prior to yours advocated more "mature" or "adult" themes:
post 51: "I want the themes to be "adult" in the sense that characters have some depth, actions have consequences, and death is meaningful."
Post 66: " I want to see a visibly distraught elf wizard talking to a streetwalker trying to get some information, or a fighter literally splitting a zombie in half." (I'm referring to the streetwalker scene, not the zombie gore.)
Post 84: "Mature subject matter may simply be a matter of exploring deeply philosophical themes, like in Planescape"
That's it, and all three posts were totally ignored by everyone else. (Heck, posts 51 and 84 were actually against "adult" content because they felt that the scenarios they described could be contained in D&D without losing a PG-13 rating!) This thread is not asking for emotionally dramatic situations. It's asking for more graphic sex and violence. Because that's how the words "mature" and "adult" have gotten twisted around in our culture.
If you want a discussion about emotional dilemmas, that should probably be a diferent thread, because this thread is clearly about graphic sex and violence.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 9:30AM
#117
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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This thread is about adult themes tones and images in the core books. scenes of graphic sexuality and violence are part of that discussion but not the only parts.
Put simply... do you want more Toon or more Gloom in your game?
World of Warhammer- Toon
Warhammer fantasy- Gloom
1980's D&D cartoon-Toon
1980's black n white 2.0 artwork- Gloom
4e Core artwork- Toon
Frank Frazetta and Borris- Gloom
Dungeons and Dragons 1990's movie- Toon
The 13th Warrior 1990's movie - Gloom
Game of Thrones- Gloom
The Scifi series Merlin- mostly Toon with a little Gloom
Generally I'm fine with a PG 13 set of artwork that allows a bit of skin, a glimpse of clevage or nipple from time to time. What I dont like is over drawn semi disney "jeez look at the size of those shoulder pads and wide as a dining room table sword" I want armor to look like armor, if somebody is being killed with a sword or axe, it should be a bit bloody. IF WotC decided to go after that mostly adult Game of Thrones market... I wouldent be opposed to a bit of full nudity, or much more brutal battle scenes possibly depicting maming and decapitation, but I doubt they would be willing to go that way.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 9:42AM
#118
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
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I want to talk about adult onset diabetes in Dungeons and Dragons.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 9:52AM
#119
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Date Joined:
Dec 24, 2007
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I want to talk about adult onset diabetes in Dungeons and Dragons.
That ... that may hit a little too close to home for some of the demo ...
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.Section Six Soldier Front Door of the House of Trolls If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 9:59AM
#120
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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I want to talk about adult onset diabetes in Dungeons and Dragons.
That ... that may hit a little too close to home for some of the demo ...
Hey, they wanted more "realism". 
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
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