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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 8:41PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2006
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Because those are really the options.
If you listen to people in Salla's camp wizards being able to do thitha like casting spells that actually have an impact other than combat is poor for the game.
If you listen to people on my side we want wizards topope rate different than fighters, not just someone who can choose between fire or lightning, area or single target.
If wizards go Sallas way, I and people who played 1, 2, 3x will not be brought into the game.
If wizards goes my way, I don'tspeak for Salla but sounds like people on her side will not play.
Isthere a middle ground? Is there compromise?
I can tell you our side thinks wizards who can only cast 1 level 1 spell at level one, who have to make a careful choice, and who can be interrupted by anything touching them is what brings in a powerful spell caster into line.
And I believe they want a slightly lower hit point artillerist who just has their combat role because that's what DnD is.
Both ideas are fine. But I don't think we will play in a game designedbased on the others spell casters. Is there hope for reconciliation of 1 2 3 players with 4 players if something this fundamental is the barrier.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 8:49PM
#2
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Thanks for the namedrop. Stokes the old ego.
Of course, you completely misunderstand my position, but that's to be expected.
I'm not saying spells shouldn't have noncombat applications. I'm saying those spells shouldn't render skills, other characters, or whole classes obsolete. I'm saying spells should not be an 'I win' button, either in combat or noncombat situations.
4e has squidloads of noncombat spells. They're called rituals and utility powers.
And I'll be completely honest, if someone thinks broken spellcasters are in any way desirable, that's someone whose opinion I utterly disregard.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 8:50PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2006
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Are you even trying. Salla just went on a rant about how charm person, a spell that is fundamental to the game, had no place in DnD, because it bypasses charisma checks 1 time per day.
Try again sir.
Everyspell bypasses some aspect of the game, that the point
Find traps spell
Remove traps spell
Passwall
Communion
Clairvoyance
Clairaudiance
Jump
Fly
Water breathing.
If according to Sally's other posts wizards should not be able to bypass encounters because it may ruin the GMs story even though GMs have prepaired for this stuff for years then there is a differeNce here.
Further more, rituals weretried, did theyget 1 2 and 3 e players to play the game the last time they tried to make it rituals? No? Wow that just blew your mind hu? If it already failed to work bringing in old players don't suggest that it magically will in thefuture with no changes.
And of corse lla you misunderstand my position but that's to be expected. I never said wizards should be unbalanced. I just said they were perfectly balanced in 1e but by game rules. Sure 2e and 3e wizards were unbalanced but that's because they removed the checks from them. You don't have any clue because your a child.
Back on topic. Is there a way to unite opposes like Salla and myself since we want totally opposed wizds
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 8:53PM
#4
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Find traps spell
Remove traps spell
Passwall
Communion
Clairvoyance
Clairaudiance
Jump
Fly
Every last one of these can leave the game for good and I would be glad. They render the skills system completely obsolete.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 8:58PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2006
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Possibly because they said the goal of 5th was to unite all generations, and try to get back everyone they lost to pathfinder.
4e was a major failure in that it removed more people from the game than it brought in. Is it fun? I am suyour is because you defend it like the holy word of god. But it changed the basic premise of what DnD is. If their goal is to reunite how can they fix the divde if they do notwant to reunite players, why lie to us about it when we were ok playing pathfinder or OSRIC. To make us hopefully and crash our dreams?
How does being able to memorize a small number of spells in advance before you know what you need and not being able to use it after you cast it remove the skill system?
More importantly does your insistence that they can go away prove my point that we have a fundamental differance?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 9:02PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2004
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Possibly because they said the goal of 5th was to unite all generations, and try to get back everyone they lost to pathfinder.
4e was a major failure in that it removed more people from the game than it brought in. Is it fun? I am suyour is because you defend it like the holy word of god. But it changed the basic premise of what DnD is. If their goal is to reunite how can they fix the divde if they do notwant to reunite players, why lie to us about it when we were ok playing pathfinder or OSRIC. To make us hopefully and crash our dreams?
How does being able to memorize a small number of spells in advance before you know what you need and not being able to use it after you cast it remove the skill system?
More importantly does your insistence that they can go away prove my point that we have a fundamental differance?
It will nit work.
It was not a failure - it made a strong base. It was a success on this.
Dude, D&D is not sacred, it can evolves. Gygax is not a god to worship, gee.
Why should the past dictate the future? Why guys do you hate changes and evoluton?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 9:05PM
#7
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Possibly because they said the goal of 5th was to unite all generations, and try to get back everyone they lost to pathfinder.
4e was a major failure in that it removed more people from the game than it brought in. Is it fun? I am suyour is because you defend it like the holy word of god. But it changed the basic premise of what DnD is. If their goal is to reunite how can they fix the divde if they do notwant to reunite players, why lie to us about it when we were ok playing pathfinder or OSRIC. To make us hopefully and crash our dreams?
How does being able to memorize a small number of spells in advance before you know what you need and not being able to use it after you cast it remove the skill system?
Because it makes the skills unnecessary. In 3e, the Rogue only needed one skill: Use Magic Device. Why? Because he could just pack a bunch of wands, scrolls and other magical gizmos and do a better job that way than actually using his skills.
If the wizard can snap his fingers and make anybody his best friend, who needs social skills?
If the wizard can make the whole team fly, who needs Jump or Swim or Balance?
If the cleric can get whatever information he wants by talking to his imaginary friend in the sky, or the wizard can eavesdrop on someone undetectably from miles away, who needs information gathering skills?
And 4e did not change the basic premise of D&D. The basic premise of D&D is 'you play a heroic adventurer out of myth and story', and that didn't change a bit.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 9:06PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2006
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Becauthe change is not evolution. Change is change. If I changed yoursalary at work by lowering it 5000 a year is that an evolution?
We see your change on things like wizards as de-evolution.
I could suggest any number of things to change the game that could be major changes but not evolutions.
Lets not have hit points, if you want your character to be able to be injured and die he does otherwise your on god mode. Evolution or devolition?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 9:09PM
#9
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Becauthe change is not evolution. Change is change. If I changed yoursalary at work by lowering it 5000 a year is that an evolution?
We see your change on things like wizards as de-evolution.
I could suggest any number of things to change the game that could be major changes but not evolutions.
Lets not have hit points, if you want your character to be able to be injured and die he does otherwise your on god mode. Evolution or devolition?
There are other systems besides hit points to determine the state of a character's injuries. Many better ones, in fact.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 14, 2012 - 9:10PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2006
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Salla all we are doing is proving there is a huge divide.
Old DnD magic
4e magic
I do not want to argue about who is better here. I want to see if there is a middle ground, and if so, what, if not should all of the 1 2 3.x becmi players all just give up and go home now, or continue to discus our views on this Forum.
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