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Switch to Forum Live View To those who do not play 3.5 anymore, what did you like about it?
1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 10:49AM #1
Hipster_Cat
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2011
Posts: 3,786
I am curious to know what you thought 3.5 did right that didn't transfer to 4e.

Just constructive comments, please.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 10:55AM #2
Polaris
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2003
Posts: 6,313

Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:49AM, Hipster_Cat wrote:

I am curious to know what you thought 3.5 did right that didn't transfer to 4e.

Just constructive comments, please.




Almost unlimited PC flexibility, more so than I've ever seen short of going completely classless (a la GURPS/HERO).  If you could imagine a character type, then there was some very solid combination of classes and PrCs (and feats and other abilities) you could paste together to make it happen.  Of course much of this flexibility came at the expense of a heavy DM burden and character balance, but of the two, to this day, I prefer to play 3.5 (although I haven't in some time).  However, now that I've DMed 4E, I don't want to ever go back to the bad old days of prepping for 3.5 or even most other TRPGs.  4e spoiled me as a DM.


-Polaris

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 10:55AM #3
Scottevil912
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 1,638
While I liked the consolidation of skills, I miss being able to apply skill points each level.  

I also miss from races things like a dwarves "Stonecunning" racial ability - I don't like having to take those as feats for some of them.
 
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 11:02AM #4
bone_naga
Date Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 10,096
I like the flexibility with the classes, but to be honest I think I like the 4e MC system more as I've actual found more flexibility and more concepts that are viable.

One thing all editions did better was the fluff. I am all for divorcing fluff and mechanics, but that doesn't mean cut out the fluff entirely. I like having the MM list how large a typical orc or goblin village is or mention that certain monsters often use other certain monsters as guards or minions. I really don't like seeing a suggested encounter of random monsters that appear to have absolutely no ties to each other.

I miss the simple core and lots of optional rules from 2e.

And that's about it.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 11:08AM #5
Zombie_Babies
Date Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 34,689
The massive amount of different options.  The varied subsystems.  The fluff.  The flexibility of char gen. 

What it comes down to (for me) has already been mentioned: I prefer to play a character in 3.5.  There's just so much more I can do in, most importantly, so many different ways.  4e just doesn't compete in that regard.  That said, I wouldn't DM 3.5 again if you paid me.  I'd DM 4e, though (but you'd still have to pay ). 
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 11:41AM #6
Areleth
Date Joined: Jan 12, 2012
Posts: 562
I think I liked that I felt more capable as an individual in 3.5. Not in the manner that I could seriously go about just handling all the encounters by myself, but that if I were seperated from the rest of the party (which frankly did happen with some frequency) my character had the ability to handle himself. The one I'm thinking of first and foremost was a Gish, fairly capable in both roles so he was just a swiss army knife, but even a low level Ranger guiding the party through a jungle felt like he could hold his own if he had to go it alone.

I'm not suggesting that all the characters should be powerhouses who don't need a party at all, and I do really enjoy 4th edition combat, but I just sort of miss that feeling of being Batman fighting with the Justice League (in a manner of speaking). Much more powerful together and absolutely part of a team effort, but if I get trapped alone in the villains lair I don't feel helpless, I think of a plan that involves seducing a were-cheetah and paying off the sophisticated monkey guy.

I still felt like a badass in 4th Edition, but I just felt a bit lesser as a character because I didn't feel anywhere near as confident when my character was alone. Which I guess a lot of old school DMs would be happy about, but I feel better as a player when I think I'm actually up to facing the dangers ahead, good friends backing me up or no.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 11:42AM #7
Grand_Theft_Otto
Date Joined: Jun 1, 2005
Posts: 1,029
Fluff, fluff, fluff. I love campaign source books, monster ecologies, etc. I'm too busy to design my own from scratch. Lords of Madness remains one of my favorite reads from 3rd edition.

Adventures. Yeah, Paizo was doing Dungeon, but they were still 3rd edition. I HATE the delve format. The flipping back and forth between a minis skirmish game and the actual adventure. The maps stink, and I often have no idea of what the overall plot/background is. Bring back the standard adventure format that's served D&D well for 30+ years!

Better magic items. I know they need to tone down the christmas tree effect, but after the really cool magic item compendium, the boring junk we got in 4th edition just seems that much more bland. I like utility items with no obvious combat function. Your daern's instant fortress, immovable rod, etc.

Legacy items - not necessarily the best implementation, but having your sword grow with you appeals to a lot of people, as opposed to scrapping it when you find the next upgrade.

The binder class. Not the most powerful class, but it had interesting mechancis and a TON of awesome flavor. The vestige build and joke of a binder class in 4th edition cant touch it.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 11:52AM #8
Omel
Date Joined: Aug 3, 2009
Posts: 70
Without a doubt magic and Psionics.  And by extension fluff and story.  I also agree with Areleth in that an individual character felt much more capable when alone in the dark.

But for me first and foremost what 3.5 and every edition before 4e did better, Magic.  Magic items and magic users.  Magic was wondrous and powerful.  Coveted and feared.  I remember a long gaming session that was all in and out of character debate over whether or not the party should use the Eye of Vecna to destroy a hated enemy or undertake the quest to destroy it and rid the worl of evil.  This same party thought the 4e versions of artifacts were an absolute disappointment (put kindly).
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 11:56AM #9
Landro
Date Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 242

Without a doubt, the flexibility of character creation and evolution is the single most important aspect of 3.5 missing in 4E.


I used to take great pleasure thinking about builds for characters that were interesting and unique, while still being effective enough to be an asset to the party rather than a liability. I had built literally hundreds of characters that were never used in 3.5 simply for the enjoyment I got out of doing so. I've made FAR fewer characters for 4E because it isn't as fascinating.


4E is far too heavy handed in its approach to character generation in my opinion. One of the great evolutions of 3.x from 2ed in my opinion was the concept of classes as packages of skills and abilities rather than as straight-jackets that define nearly everything about your character. I was dismayed that Essentials appeared to be a move back to the 2ed days where class was everything again.


In 4E, I cannot play a street-urchin pickpocket who learns of religion and eventually finds their place in the world as a Paladin of Torm. At least, I can't let that story play out during the course of a campaign. That character development was something that had to have happened in backstory only in order to fit into the mechanics of multiclassing in 4E.


I have never grasped why so many readers seem so focused on their characters being members of a specific class first and foremost. It seems to me that many (perhaps even most) of the players of 3.x didn't move with the times and embrace the new possibilities it presented them with. Sadly, with the advent of Essentials it seems to me that R&D is moving further from the 3.x system that I loved and not closer to it.


I will be the first to admit that multi-classing in 3.5 was not perfect. There were imbalances in the way it affected spell-casting classes compared to non-spell-casting ones. It allowed for nearly invulnerable characters due to the front-loading of save modifiers. BAB's could be quite variable if levels in each individual class were not considered carefully. Favoured classes were a terrible idea. Despite these (and many other) pitfalls, it allowed my imagination to fire in ways that make 4E look truly bland in comparison.


I have felt for a long time that there is a strong contingent of players who insist that all you need is imagination to differentiate members of an archetypal class from each other, and that multiclassing (or even other methods of providing options for players) amounts to nothing more than an exercise in min-maxing. Min-maxing, to these people, is bad for unspecified reasons. Presumably because it is not an element of the game that they find appealing themselves despite the fact that many do. Instead, I suggest that freer multiclassing is an avenue to enhance the creative process. One that can be taken or left as desired.


4E is built around archetypal characters. I do not wish to play an archetype. I wish to play a person with a unique set of skills and outlooks. 3.5 gave me more or what I’m looking for in that regard than 4E ever has.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 12:00PM #10
Litigation
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2008
Posts: 3,139
Tome of Battle is the one thing I really liked about 3.5, I wish 4e's martials followed its template more closely than they did, and I hope that 5e steps back and uses ToB as a starting point for martials (and weapon-primary classes in general, so this includes Paladins, for example) doing Cool Things (TM). Funny thing is, the Essentials Slayer and Knight with their at-will stances was an obvious homage to ToB, but they forgot to fill those classes in with real encounter powers.

I wouldn't mind seeing Wizards get some of their magic back, either, as long as it doesn't take over the game. While 3.5's SoDs were bad, there are ways to implement SoDs in a game that don't amount to pure cheap BS, so I wouldn't mind seeing spells like Implosion or Wail of the Banshee make their returns under such a system.
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