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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 11:25AM
#61
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My biggest complaint with 4E (and this is a general complaint of WotC I think) is the lack of writers and writing skills and QC.
You shouldn't have to go to the website on release day for errata on the new book. Nor should a creature in an Encounter, a Lair Assault or any other officially printed matter be described as carrying items x, y and z and then have no stats, lore or even indication of what some of those weapons are. Too many times I've looked at their supplied adventure paths and found that their design and QC is lacking.
Not that the modules that TSR used to publish were 100% perfect but there was a group of people there whose jobs were actually to write an engaging adventure and double and triple check that it all made sense. WotC, for the most part, does not appear to do this.
And seriously, if I'm told, or I have to tell my players one more time that they are caravan guards...
Let that hook be forever banished from 5e.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:09PM
#62
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2012
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I am a GM of over 12 years and I'd like to share my thoughts in hopes it has some effect on Wizards and the future of D&D. When 4E came around, I managed a group of 9 individuals, 10 counting myself. 10 people who typically purchase books for their own use, etc. When 4E arrived we were excited but we knew Wizards hadn't released something in a long time, so we purchased 2 Core rulebooks, 1 GM guide and the Monster/Beastiary. This is where our purchases stopped. While I ran a campaign with 4E for a good 5 months, it wasn't the books or the mechanics that stuck in my players minds - it was the story I delivered. After our playthrough, we discussed what do next and unanimously we all ditched 4E, while some mechanics we would miss other systems were better for my group. I'm not saying it was a bad system as many liked it but I'd like to point out the things that we all greatly disliked about 4E.
- You took a game for the imagination and tried to turn it into an MMO. This can be countered by saying you can rule or play however you like, which is what we did but the fact that the book did not support the interest or the feel my group was trying to accomplish we left. Combat felt like an arcade game with daily powers, encounters and at wills. Granted, 3E had dailies, etc but they were a side note in the grand scheme of things where as 4E pushes it in your face on all facets.
- The writing was presented in a MMO/Arcade-esque fashion. Gone were the aspects of Role Playing from items and fluff. You took items and turned them into stack blocks which became a joke of "Just skip the backstory i want the stats" with my group.
These were the two primary reasons we left with that bitter taste in our mouths. We went back to 3.5 and then discovered Pathfinder - a system made with the love and care of storytelling, role playing and what made 2e/3e so loved. Maybe it was 4E's modernized feel or maybe it was the aforementioned bullet points above but the game was presented like a board game, played like a board game and felt like it forgot who it was.
Some of the best moments in my RP settings is when people describe their blows and spells, but 4E took the imagination from it and gave it to the player in a quick little excerpt. You could say that my players could of described whatever they wanted, which I fully gave them the freedom to do but when the combat is built like that people just use it because its there and ready.
I'm not saying my ideas and opinions are correct or bullet proof in logic, but those two core elements are what took us away and kept our wallets away from 4E. I long for the days of new systems that can support mine and my players wishes. Pathfinder has done a hell of a job recapturing the great feel that 3.0/3.5 had, but even PF has its flaws.
In conclusion, put the love back into the game. Don't treat us like numbers for your paycheck and stop trying to fix something that isn't broken. Give us mounds of fluff to use that is meaningful, don't make us pay a monthly fee for a subscription for tools that are already going to be made for free by players. We're all here for story, combat, decisions and getting together not just combat in book form.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:10PM
#63
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- The writing was presented in a MMO/Arcade-esque fashion. Gone were the aspects of Role Playing from items and fluff. You took items and turned them into stack blocks which became a joke of "Just skip the backstory i want the stats" with my group.
The fluff was removed so you had the freedom to easily create and insert your own. This is a feature, not a bug. You give stuff your own backstory, not someone else's.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:21PM
#64
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2012
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I know that. The fact that it was taken out made the books feel empty and shallow. I do create my own worlds/npcs, etc but if the book has flavor and feel to it it gives the books color, character and life. Instead my players felt like we were getting a dictionary, thesaurus or a mathbook. I understand the direction they took, but I was just expressing why we never used it. The feel of it and the combat was made like an MMO. 3E gave you multiple swings which left the descriptors up to you. 4E gave you abilities that might as well be on a keyboard and hot keyed, which directly influences the feel of the over all presentation.
I'm not asking to write my stories, write characters out and do the world for me but capture the essence of D&D, swords and magic, dragons, love, lust, taverns and loot - not here is stat block XYZ, monster block XYZ, insert monthly subscription fee for more stat blocks please.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:29PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Feb 27, 2011
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There sure are a lot of angry Grognards with baseless arguments in this post. 4e is a solid system. Don't blame Wizards for your lack of imagination.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:39PM
#66
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There sure are a lot of angry Grognards with baseless arguments in this post. 4e is a solid system. Don't blame Wizards for your lack of imagination.
Am I a grognard.... maybe.... that word gets tossed around alot these days. Am I a big fan of 4e, no.
But do I think 4e is a solid system, yes.
However, it's a system that implemented some components that I personally do not like. My arguments may seem baseless to some, but perhaps not to others.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:50PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2005
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Why 4e failed? Well for me at least and among other things it was: a) the system (not compatible with previous editions, we gave it a try, in form of three adventures set in the Forgotten Realms, but although we stayed in the Realms, we left for Pathfinder, which allowed us to convert our 3.5 characters and worked better for us, 4e might have been a good system but not as a DnD edition). b) What they did to the Realms ('hey you still got 10 years before the spellplague sets in! finish your Campaign and then see everything your heroes archived get blown away by the spellplague, muhahahah... it just wasn't 'the' Realms anymore, they just 'gleefully pushed to many holy cows into the meat grinder' as it was once put by one designer, but I and my group are still hoping for the 'Old Realms vibe' to return: Blackstaff Tower, Downshadow, the Elminster and Drizzt novels slowly gave back at least some of the old stuff (not to metion a hope for the return of Mystra in case of the Sage of Shadowdale Saga). c) 'They stormed my house and took my previous edition books...' at least digitally, when they stopped selling DnD-pdfs on drivethru and cut of the download-links of already paid pdfs (I had several downloads left for each book), only because they wanted to open their own pdf shop... by the way has that happend in the meantime? Last time I checked I still wasn't abel to buy a pdf copy of the FRCG anywhere. d) They stopped the licenceds DnD-lines where they could: Ravenloft had a cool run with White Wolf...  e) stopped publishing Dungeon and Dragon magazines in print... and the digital magazines replaced digital content that Wizards offered for free on their website before 4e (remember the Return to Undermountain series or the whole other set of Realms articles by Ed? Although I can't blame them for wanting to make money)
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:58PM
#68
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Date Joined:
Dec 17, 2008
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Bloat, poor playtesting, feat fixing (using feats to fix problems) real competition (pathfinder) fighting yourself (Digital vs Hard copy), bungled promises (digital matierial etc) dying market knee jerk.
+1000
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 12:59PM
#69
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2008
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There sure are a lot of angry Grognards with baseless arguments in this post. 4e is a solid system. Don't blame Wizards for your lack of imagination.
We aren't.
we are blaming them for lack of Inspiration.
Imagination is a big component in the human psyche, but not everyone has it, that's true. But we are the most creative of the human race. We need Inspiration. We want something to work off of not just with. Do you understand? Do you comprehend?
4e is a good game. It is a solid system. It never should have been called Dungeons and Dragons. It's a completely different game, with a completely different feel. Dungeons and Dragons has some romance we worked off of. 4e never had that. Or if it did, it was subtle and overpowered.
Author of Elementalism in Atlas Games' Occult Lore. 
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1 year ago ::
Jan 11, 2012 - 1:02PM
#70
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What would make 5th ed a success? Lets see for one go back to the way that 3.5 was! I fully understand that things will be different, granted but why did something so amazing get mutilated to something so horrible? 4th ed seemed to be designed to allow people who cant play worth anything, to be allowed to live by mucking up the system. Along with this the aspect of role playing was completely ruined! Monsters that had effects that made them legendary removed, such as the Beholder's death gaze. So some people aren't smart enough to survive harder monsters. By removing this obsticle the players were no longer forced to play smarter or learn from their mistakes making gaming unenjoyable for all advanced and experianced gamers. If those things werent enough, the game sheet was a disaster as well. It was scrambled and contorted to be nothing more than child play scribbles that need an interpreter to desipher. On top of all those flaws being a DM for this system was a nightmare! My entire town avoided 4th ed because of these things and many MANY other reasons. In nut shell, why distroy what worked and replace it with something elementry students wouldnt even like after a year of playing around with it? 4th ed was a disgrace im sorry, but it was. Taking away memorable and favorite races and classes and replacing them with poorly thought out races whom all had special abilties, like that made them any better, was not only wrong, but a recipe for life long gamers to hate and mock a once beloved system of the imagination!
In conclusion, what would make 5th ed better? Forget that the abortion that was 4th ed ever exsisted and return to what worked! I dont know what you were thinking but hopefully you will actually listen to your gamers and fix what went wrong!
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