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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 3:57AM #21
Austinwulf
Date Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 578
LEVEL
    1-20
    
    POWERS
    
    BAD -ish
    VANCIANT SYSTEM
     
    BAD
    CLASS ROLES
    GOOD 
    
    MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY
    
    NOT IMPORTANT 
    ABILITIES SCORES
    GOOD - however, I'd like the actual number to be more than just generating a bonus.  Otherwise, why not just have the stats be -1 to +5 to start? (because that wouldn't look at all like dnd I'm guessing)
    
    A LOT OF CLASSES
    
    BAD 
    A LOT OF RACES
    GOOD 
    
    ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES
    YES
    
    FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES
    GOOD - for skills
    BAD - for combat (must haves of + to hit feats)
    HIT POINTS
    GOOD - not really, but I don't see getting rid of them
    
    HEALING SURGES
    GREAT!- a great innovation of 4th.  Surges should be a resource with several outlets, (activating items, power attacks, etc)
    
    DEFENSES
   Any thought to opposed rolls?

    SKILL CHALLENGES
    
    BAD - skills worked fine they way they were before, and should meld into and out of combat seamlessly
    SKILLS HAS TO BE
    IMPORTANT - if its just fluff, why give it a number?
    
    NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT
    50% AS NOW - maybe 60%?
     
    ALIGNMENT IS
   abstain
    
    SAVE OR DIE
    
    BAD
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 4:00AM #22
HengeGuardian
Date Joined: May 11, 2009
Posts: 88
 LEVEL
    1-10, 11-20, 21-30 in different supplements. Eg the monster manual for Heroic Tier should be entitled:

Monster Manual I
"Harrowing Encounters for Heroic Characters" (Levels 1-10)

Monster Manual 2
"Punishing Encounters for Paragon Characters" (Levels 11-20)

Monster Manual 3
"Impossible Challenges for Epic Characters" (Levels 21-30)

Preferably with Dungeon Masters Guides and Player's Handbooks to accompany them. The reason for this being is that many groups never get past heroic tier. Most of our campaigns end around level 8 or 9, and all of this extra stuff for paragon and epic never sees play. It is wasting space in our books. I am using 4th edition examples, but the same is true of our extensive experience with 3.5. This way, the books can be released in waves, and picking up the set of Paragon books for your level 10 characters would be an event for both the players and the DMs. I know I am sick of ending up on the pages with Orcus and Lolth, knowing that I will never get to play them... 
    
POWERS

    GOOD - But they need to be modular, so that groups who do not like them do not need to play with them. The game must still operate without them.
   
    VANCIANT SYSTEM
   
    BAD - There needs to be some way of having to conserve ones resources as you get deeper into the dungeon, but I think that a wizard that knows the fireball spell should always be able to cast it. If vancian magic was to reappear, it should be done as a points buy system, similar to the way DMs spend XP to build encounters in 4th.

    CLASS ROLES

    GOOD - Good for the health and balance of the game, but I feel like many players were unhappy with how they felt forced to pick a role. Ideally, a class should be the result of the confluence of Power Source and Role, as is the case with 4th, but I think players should be free to define the concept of their character within that construct. For example:

The Character Concept is: Necromancer
The Necromancer could be concepted as an Arcane Controller, a Divine Striker, a Primal Leader, a Martial Defender.

Alternatively - The Role/Source combination is: Divine Leader
By all means, suggest that the concept of Runepriests, Clerics and Paladins make good Divine Leaders, and even provide guides to making those characters, but don't restrict players by saying that they must play one of those characters to fill this role.

I guess what I am really after is making reskinning not only allowed, but encouraged. Players can share the stories of how they made a Psionic Controller concepted as a Necromancer, and other players will be intrigued to find out how it played.

What this requires to implement is Power Bleed, and a hell of a lot of it. Powers meant for Strikers should be available to all Strikers, and powers meant for Arcane characters should be available to all Arcane characters. This will cut down the number of powers per book, while still allowing each niche to feel special and enabling organic cross-classing.
    

    MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY
   
    NOT IMPORTANT - 4th edition was well balanced, but it did place a lot of pressure on the DM to drop the right loot at the right time. I would rather the mechanical balance of characters did not hinge on their equipment, and the DM was free to give interesting and unique wondrous and magical items as true rewards rather than out of a twisted sense of obligation. Also, Longsword +5 = bad. I would rather there was a ubiquitous use of naming, or just do away with straight +X bonuses altogether in favour of more unique effects.

    ABILITIES SCORES

    GOOD - There is a lot of scope for basing more mechanics off these, which has been discussed in depth in Legends & Lore. I liked the direction those discussions were going. 
    

    A LOT OF CLASSES

    GOOD - For a lack of a more appropriate response. I believe to some extent that classes are obsolete, or relegated to fluff. I have answered this fully under CLASS ROLES.

    A LOT OF RACES

    GOOD - A character's race goes a long way towards originality. I liked the races presented in supplements like Heroes  of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild. I also would be a big fan of a Savage Species book for 5th, which would give you fantastic race options for starting at Heroic, Paragon or Epic. That way you could state catagorically that the player who wants to be a mindflayer simply can't until they are ready to build a Paragon character. 

As an aside, I would be in favour of an option for players to roll a new character at the beginning of each tier, even in an established campaign.
  
    ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES

    BAD - I do not want to be forced either to play a certain race to be effective with my chosen character, or not to play a certain race because I will be hamstrung. Rather, I would like the racial descriptions to state, for example, that Gnomes are usually more Intelligent and Charismatic than other races, and let the characters assign their ability scores as they see fit. They may find their Gnome has high Intelligence, but this gives them an unnattractive ego resulting in a low Charisma score. The game should be rebalanced to account for this lack of bonuses, and players may never again fret that their Gnome Paladin's Intelligence bonus goes to waste.

    FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES
    
    BAD - +X should be done with the 1/2 level mechanic of 4th, and or Inherent Bonuses as you level up. +X is ugly and bad.

    HIT POINTS

    GOOD - I haven't heard any arguments against them, so as far as I can see the status quo wins out. I will say that they should remain connected with Constitution, and that you should gain a static number of them each time you level up. I do not yet know if this number is the same for each character, or if it should be worked out based on the character's constitution modifier or score.
    
    HEALING SURGES

    GOOD - I don't know about the name, but I like the way that Second Wind functions in 4th. As far as using them for all healing, I think there should be a way to have the healer's skill in Heal, or proficiency with Healing magic matter more in terms of the amount of healing given. I like that the characters can use Healing Surges as resources for more than just healing. Perhaps they could be reconcepted as vital energy, and a cleric-like character could use them to Turn Undead. Characters could expend them like Action Points, or have them drained by enemies. I guess they would be a universal currency, sort of like the Inspiration Points of the 3.5 Factotum class from Dungeonscape. 

    DEFENSES

    AS AC - Rolling high to hit a target is now a key part of the game, and 4th's treatment of the Will, Reflex and Fortitude defenses was a major breakthrough. Stick to that.

    SKILL CHALLENGES

    UNDECIDED - I have yet to experience a successful one, but they still intrigue me in concept. However, I believe an overhaul to skills, and also to XP, as I suggest, may render them obsolete.

    SKILLS HAS TO BE

    IMPORTANT - Players should feel that investing in skills is worthwhile, which is why I advocate the Novice-Grandmaster system of skill training. If climbing up onto a 10ft cliff is a Journeyman ranked challenge for Climb (or Athletics), then a character who is a Novice at Climbing should make a check, the Journeyman Climber can do it fine, while the Grandmaster Climbing Monk should use that ledge as the push off point for scaling the entire mountain. There should also be a rank for impossible, where epic characters can make a check...
    
    NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT

    50% AS NOW - This should be the baseline. DMs should feel free to run harder monsters and encounters if that is what the players want. Just bump the monsters up a few levels if the need arises.
    
    ALIGNMENT IS

    FLUFF - Very important fluff. The old alignment system of Lawful-Chaotic, Good-Evil, should return, but it should not impose mechanical restrictions on the characters. The paladin's moral quandary becomes much more compelling when they have no mechanical downside for taking the "questionable" option. This removes the metagame restrictions of not performing actions because of a fear of losing one's class features. Alignment is and always will be an important part of understanding the D&D universe, to understand where NPCs and Monsters are coming from, and to give players a baseline for thier character's worldview.

    SAVE OR DIE
    
    BAD - I do not want my character to be extinguished in one unlucky roll. If players want a hardcore game with the deadliness ramped up to 11, then a module should be created to cater for them, but I am not one of those players.

OTHER CONCERNS OR CHANGES I WOULD MAKE

XP


The system of levelling up once a certain amount of XP is reached is almost obsolete with 4th. All of my PCs level up at the same time, and I often just round their XP up to the next level as quest XP if they are close enough. I may as well ask them every 4 encounters or so if they are ready to level, or have each level up after a particularly tough boss fight. New characters to join the party should always start on the same XP total as the other characters, and they should never have different totals. This ensures a level playing field. This may require an overhaul to my favourite part of 4th, DM encounter design, but that can work on a purely points buy based system if required.

MONSTER & NPC STATS VS PC STATS

4th is wonderful to DM because encounter design is so easy, mainly due to the distinction between PC stat blocks and Monster stat blocks. This simply needs to be kept, but streamlined. The number of powers must be significantly reduced, and similar powers for monsters and PCs should be made the same. A Fireball should always be a Fireball, and Invisibility should always be Invisibility. This is good news for players too, as there should be achievable ways of gaining the signature abilities of monsters, and vice versa. The Stoneskin Contingency of the 3.5 era NPC wizard is once again feared, and the dwarf barbarian can relish his new pair of Bulletteskin Gloves that grant him burrowing. This should also allow for easy DM monster design, something that was conspicuously absent in 4th.

FEATS 

Should be made modular like powers. 

CHARACTER CONCEPTS

The core books should have a Character Concept for each Power Source/Role combination, with the iconic titles of the basic classes, such as Elf Ranger, Human Fighter, Halfling Thief, etc. Basically like D&D Essentials. These characters are basically premade characters with all the choices already made, and the game should be able to play straight out of the box like this. Character creation will involve coming up with a Character Concept, then choosing the best, or most interesting, way of representing and building that character using the Role/Power Source combinations.

If I wanted to build a Stealthy Assassin, for example, chances are I will be building a striker, so I would choose some cool powers and/or feats from the striker list. However, I also get to choose where he gets his power from. He may use magical study or ability to stay undetected or become a more efficient killer, in which case I would pick from the Arcane list. If, on the other hand, he was an agent of a god's wrath in the mortal realm, I would likely choose him some divine powers and/or feats. This way, people get to build the characters they want to build, without having to feel restricted by a draconian class structure.

As an exercise, perhaps think about how these concepts could be implemented: A loyal bodyguard, a tribal medicine man, a ruthless bountyhunter, a benevolent thief, or an eccentric inventor. 

Thanks for reading. 
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 4:07AM #23
Novacat
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 8,741

Jan 11, 2012 -- 4:00AM, HengeGuardian wrote:

 LEVEL
    1-10, 11-20, 21-30 in different supplements. Eg the monster manual for Heroic Tier should be entitled:

Monster Manual I
"Harrowing Encounters for Heroic Characters" (Levels 1-10)

Monster Manual 2
"Punishing Encounters for Paragon Characters" (Levels 11-20)

Monster Manual 3
"Impossible Challenges for Epic Characters" (Levels 21-30)

Preferably with Dungeon Masters Guides and Player's Handbooks to accompany them. The reason for this being is that many groups never get past heroic tier. Most of our campaigns end around level 8 or 9, and all of this extra stuff for paragon and epic never sees play. It is wasting space in our books. I am using 4th edition examples, but the same is true of our extensive experience with 3.5. This way, the books can be released in waves, and picking up the set of Paragon books for your level 10 characters would be an event for both the players and the DMs. I know I am sick of ending up on the pages with Orcus and Lolth, knowing that I will never get to play them... 



Do you realize how many people would shout "Cash grabbing, greedy, soulless WotC!" and swear off of the game just for this? To play through level 30 would REQUIRE 3 books for the players, and 6 more for the DM.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 4:17AM #24
fightingfish18
Date Joined: Jul 3, 2008
Posts: 71
LEVEL
    1-20 This
    1-30
    POWERS
    GOOD
    BAD  This
    VANCIANT SYSTEM
    GOOD Hmmm I'd go with good over bad, but is mediocre an option?
    BAD
    CLASS ROLES
    GOOD 
    BAD - As they currently exist.  Could they be good?  Quite possibly, but not as 4e did it.
    MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY
    IMPORTANT
    NOT IMPORTANT This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x1000000000000000000000000000000
    ABILITIES SCORES
    GOOD Necessary
    BAD
    A LOT OF CLASSES
    GOOD Again, I'm in the middle, but I'm for lots of options so good.
    BAD 
    A LOT OF RACES
    GOOD As stated above.
    BAD
    ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES
    YES  This.  It helps differentiate a human from a half orc.
    NO
    FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES
    GOOD - Good to have them.
    BAD 
    HIT POINTS
    GOOD - Necessary. 
    BAD
    HEALING SURGES
    GOOD 
    BAD - Beyond terrible.  Seriously !@#$ this.
    DEFENSES
    AS AC - Keep with the classic
    AS DAMAGE RESISTANCE
    SKILL CHALLENGES
    GOOD 
    BAD - As they currently exist
    SKILLS HAS TO BE
    IMPORTANT - Midline.  If we have skills, they need to be important.  But I wouldn't lose sleep if they did away with skills.
    NOT IMPORTANT
    NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT
    50% AS NOW - THIS.
    MORE LIKE 75% 
    ALIGNMENT IS
    MECHANICAL
    FLUFF - Definitely
    SAVE OR DIE
    GOOD - We need more lethality in the game.
    BAD
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 4:21AM #25
Novacat
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 8,741

Jan 11, 2012 -- 4:17AM, fightingfish18 wrote:

SAVE OR DIE
    GOOD - We need more lethality in the game.
    BAD



Tell this to my party that TPKed twice before 5th level. Or my other party that has lost enough characters individually to amount to two TPKs. 

Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 4:44AM #26
HengeGuardian
Date Joined: May 11, 2009
Posts: 88

Jan 11, 2012 -- 4:07AM, Novacat wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 4:00AM, HengeGuardian wrote:

 LEVEL
    1-10, 11-20, 21-30 in different supplements. Eg the monster manual for Heroic Tier should be entitled:

Monster Manual I
"Harrowing Encounters for Heroic Characters" (Levels 1-10)

Monster Manual 2
"Punishing Encounters for Paragon Characters" (Levels 11-20)

Monster Manual 3
"Impossible Challenges for Epic Characters" (Levels 21-30)

Preferably with Dungeon Masters Guides and Player's Handbooks to accompany them. The reason for this being is that many groups never get past heroic tier. Most of our campaigns end around level 8 or 9, and all of this extra stuff for paragon and epic never sees play. It is wasting space in our books. I am using 4th edition examples, but the same is true of our extensive experience with 3.5. This way, the books can be released in waves, and picking up the set of Paragon books for your level 10 characters would be an event for both the players and the DMs. I know I am sick of ending up on the pages with Orcus and Lolth, knowing that I will never get to play them... 



Do you realize how many people would shout "Cash grabbing, greedy, soulless WotC!" and swear off of the game just for this? To play through level 30 would REQUIRE 3 books for the players, and 6 more for the DM.




I am just suggesting what I would want to see, as is the purpose of this thread. I would rather use everything in the books I buy, than have to filter through the paragon and epic stuff to find heroic. I suppose it wouldn't be as much of an issue if they arranged the books by tier instead of actually having different books, but I figured they could use the space to add more content. Also, you'll find that players and dms already need to shell out a lot, MMII, MMIII, DMGII, PHBII and PHBIII. That makes 8 total with the core books. I am proposing 9, with the content arguably distributed more logically. Alternatively, make everything available as PDF in addition to books, and sell them cheap as chips. You seem to be concerned with the price of books rather than the actual suggested change, and that is a different issue.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 5:20AM #27
Jib916
Date Joined: Oct 25, 2009
Posts: 69
Great Idea Leichenreiter, heres my 2 cents
 
LEVEL
    1-30 , I have enjoyed the differnt tiers in 4e
POWERS
    GOOD, I dont think i could go back to a powerless rpg system. This is what won me over in 4e and DND in general
VANCIANT SYSTEM
    BAD 
CLASS ROLES
    GOOD, I really enjoy class rolls myself
MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY
    NOT IMPORTANT
ABILITIES SCORES
    GOOD 
A LOT OF CLASSES
    GOOD, A MUST!!
A LOT OF RACES
    GOOD , Another Must!!
ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES
    YES 
HIT POINTS
    GOOD, Is there any other way?
HEALING SURGES
    GOOD , Great!
DEFENSES
    AS AC
SKILL CHALLENGES
    GOOD , Some Changes need be made, but a great idea
SKILLS HAS TO BE
    IMPORTANT, More Skills?
NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT
    60% ?
ALIGNMENT IS
    MECHANICAL
SAVE OR DIE
    BAD 


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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 5:23AM #28
Novacat
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 8,741

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:20AM, Jib916 wrote:

HIT POINTS
    GOOD, Is there any other way?



Most RPGs in my experience don't use hit points.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 5:28AM #29
wrecan
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Date Joined: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 17,727
Fun idea

    LEVEL
    1-20
    POWERS
    Abstain (whatever works)
    VANCIAN SYSTEM
    BAD
    CLASS ROLES
    GOOD
    MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY
    NOT IMPORTANT
    ABILITIES SCORES
    GOOD
    A LOT OF CLASSES
    BAD
    A LOT OF RACES
    BAD
    ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES
    NO
    FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES
    BAD
    HIT POINTS
    GOOD
    HEALING SURGES
    GOOD
    DEFENSES
    AS AC
    SKILL CHALLENGES
    BAD
    SKILLS HAS TO BE
    IMPORTANT
    NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT
    MORE LIKE 75%
    ALIGNMENT IS
    FLUFF
    SAVE OR DIE
    BAD
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 5:31AM #30
jonathan_sicari
Date Joined: Sep 1, 2008
Posts: 3,414
 LEVEL
    L1-30
    POWERS
    GOOD
    VANCIANT SYSTEM
    BAD
    CLASS ROLES
    GOOD 
    MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY
    NOT IMPORTANT
    ABILITIES SCORES
    GOOD 
    A LOT OF CLASSES
    GOOD 
    A LOT OF RACES
    GOOD 
    ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES
    YES
    FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES
    GOOD
    HIT POINTS
    GOOD 
    HEALING SURGES
    GOOD 
    DEFENSES
    AS AC
    SKILL CHALLENGES
    GOOD 
    SKILLS HAS TO BE
    IMPORTANT 
    NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT
        MORE LIKE 75%
    ALIGNMENT IS
        FLUFF
    SAVE OR DIE
    BAD


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