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LEVEL 1-20 POWERS BAD -ish VANCIANT SYSTEM BAD CLASS ROLES GOOD MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY NOT IMPORTANT ABILITIES SCORES GOOD - however, I'd like the actual number to be more than just generating a bonus. Otherwise, why not just have the stats be -1 to +5 to start? (because that wouldn't look at all like dnd I'm guessing) A LOT OF CLASSES BAD A LOT OF RACES GOOD ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES YES FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES GOOD - for skills BAD - for combat (must haves of + to hit feats) HIT POINTS GOOD - not really, but I don't see getting rid of them HEALING SURGES GREAT!- a great innovation of 4th. Surges should be a resource with several outlets, (activating items, power attacks, etc) DEFENSES Any thought to opposed rolls?
SKILL CHALLENGES BAD - skills worked fine they way they were before, and should meld into and out of combat seamlessly SKILLS HAS TO BE IMPORTANT - if its just fluff, why give it a number? NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT 50% AS NOW - maybe 60%? ALIGNMENT IS abstain SAVE OR DIE BAD
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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LEVEL 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 in different supplements. Eg the monster manual for Heroic Tier should be entitled:
Monster Manual I "Harrowing Encounters for Heroic Characters" (Levels 1-10)
Monster Manual 2 "Punishing Encounters for Paragon Characters" (Levels 11-20)
Monster Manual 3 "Impossible Challenges for Epic Characters" (Levels 21-30)
Preferably with Dungeon Masters Guides and Player's Handbooks to accompany them. The reason for this being is that many groups never get past heroic tier. Most of our campaigns end around level 8 or 9, and all of this extra stuff for paragon and epic never sees play. It is wasting space in our books. I am using 4th edition examples, but the same is true of our extensive experience with 3.5. This way, the books can be released in waves, and picking up the set of Paragon books for your level 10 characters would be an event for both the players and the DMs. I know I am sick of ending up on the pages with Orcus and Lolth, knowing that I will never get to play them... POWERS
GOOD - But they need to be modular, so that groups who do not like them do not need to play with them. The game must still operate without them. VANCIANT SYSTEM BAD - There needs to be some way of having to conserve ones resources as you get deeper into the dungeon, but I think that a wizard that knows the fireball spell should always be able to cast it. If vancian magic was to reappear, it should be done as a points buy system, similar to the way DMs spend XP to build encounters in 4th.
CLASS ROLES
GOOD - Good for the health and balance of the game, but I feel like many players were unhappy with how they felt forced to pick a role. Ideally, a class should be the result of the confluence of Power Source and Role, as is the case with 4th, but I think players should be free to define the concept of their character within that construct. For example:
The Character Concept is: Necromancer The Necromancer could be concepted as an Arcane Controller, a Divine Striker, a Primal Leader, a Martial Defender.
Alternatively - The Role/Source combination is: Divine Leader By all means, suggest that the concept of Runepriests, Clerics and Paladins make good Divine Leaders, and even provide guides to making those characters, but don't restrict players by saying that they must play one of those characters to fill this role.
I guess what I am really after is making reskinning not only allowed, but encouraged. Players can share the stories of how they made a Psionic Controller concepted as a Necromancer, and other players will be intrigued to find out how it played.
What this requires to implement is Power Bleed, and a hell of a lot of it. Powers meant for Strikers should be available to all Strikers, and powers meant for Arcane characters should be available to all Arcane characters. This will cut down the number of powers per book, while still allowing each niche to feel special and enabling organic cross-classing.
MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY NOT IMPORTANT - 4th edition was well balanced, but it did place a lot of pressure on the DM to drop the right loot at the right time. I would rather the mechanical balance of characters did not hinge on their equipment, and the DM was free to give interesting and unique wondrous and magical items as true rewards rather than out of a twisted sense of obligation. Also, Longsword +5 = bad. I would rather there was a ubiquitous use of naming, or just do away with straight +X bonuses altogether in favour of more unique effects.
ABILITIES SCORES
GOOD - There is a lot of scope for basing more mechanics off these, which has been discussed in depth in Legends & Lore. I liked the direction those discussions were going.
A LOT OF CLASSES
GOOD - For a lack of a more appropriate response. I believe to some extent that classes are obsolete, or relegated to fluff. I have answered this fully under CLASS ROLES.
A LOT OF RACES
GOOD - A character's race goes a long way towards originality. I liked the races presented in supplements like Heroes of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild. I also would be a big fan of a Savage Species book for 5th, which would give you fantastic race options for starting at Heroic, Paragon or Epic. That way you could state catagorically that the player who wants to be a mindflayer simply can't until they are ready to build a Paragon character.
As an aside, I would be in favour of an option for players to roll a new character at the beginning of each tier, even in an established campaign. ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES
BAD - I do not want to be forced either to play a certain race to be effective with my chosen character, or not to play a certain race because I will be hamstrung. Rather, I would like the racial descriptions to state, for example, that Gnomes are usually more Intelligent and Charismatic than other races, and let the characters assign their ability scores as they see fit. They may find their Gnome has high Intelligence, but this gives them an unnattractive ego resulting in a low Charisma score. The game should be rebalanced to account for this lack of bonuses, and players may never again fret that their Gnome Paladin's Intelligence bonus goes to waste.
FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES BAD - +X should be done with the 1/2 level mechanic of 4th, and or Inherent Bonuses as you level up. +X is ugly and bad.
HIT POINTS
GOOD - I haven't heard any arguments against them, so as far as I can see the status quo wins out. I will say that they should remain connected with Constitution, and that you should gain a static number of them each time you level up. I do not yet know if this number is the same for each character, or if it should be worked out based on the character's constitution modifier or score. HEALING SURGES
GOOD - I don't know about the name, but I like the way that Second Wind functions in 4th. As far as using them for all healing, I think there should be a way to have the healer's skill in Heal, or proficiency with Healing magic matter more in terms of the amount of healing given. I like that the characters can use Healing Surges as resources for more than just healing. Perhaps they could be reconcepted as vital energy, and a cleric-like character could use them to Turn Undead. Characters could expend them like Action Points, or have them drained by enemies. I guess they would be a universal currency, sort of like the Inspiration Points of the 3.5 Factotum class from Dungeonscape.
DEFENSES
AS AC - Rolling high to hit a target is now a key part of the game, and 4th's treatment of the Will, Reflex and Fortitude defenses was a major breakthrough. Stick to that.
SKILL CHALLENGES
UNDECIDED - I have yet to experience a successful one, but they still intrigue me in concept. However, I believe an overhaul to skills, and also to XP, as I suggest, may render them obsolete.
SKILLS HAS TO BE
IMPORTANT - Players should feel that investing in skills is worthwhile, which is why I advocate the Novice-Grandmaster system of skill training. If climbing up onto a 10ft cliff is a Journeyman ranked challenge for Climb (or Athletics), then a character who is a Novice at Climbing should make a check, the Journeyman Climber can do it fine, while the Grandmaster Climbing Monk should use that ledge as the push off point for scaling the entire mountain. There should also be a rank for impossible, where epic characters can make a check... NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT
50% AS NOW - This should be the baseline. DMs should feel free to run harder monsters and encounters if that is what the players want. Just bump the monsters up a few levels if the need arises. ALIGNMENT IS
FLUFF - Very important fluff. The old alignment system of Lawful-Chaotic, Good-Evil, should return, but it should not impose mechanical restrictions on the characters. The paladin's moral quandary becomes much more compelling when they have no mechanical downside for taking the "questionable" option. This removes the metagame restrictions of not performing actions because of a fear of losing one's class features. Alignment is and always will be an important part of understanding the D&D universe, to understand where NPCs and Monsters are coming from, and to give players a baseline for thier character's worldview.
SAVE OR DIE BAD - I do not want my character to be extinguished in one unlucky roll. If players want a hardcore game with the deadliness ramped up to 11, then a module should be created to cater for them, but I am not one of those players.
OTHER CONCERNS OR CHANGES I WOULD MAKE
XP
The system of levelling up once a certain amount of XP is reached is almost obsolete with 4th. All of my PCs level up at the same time, and I often just round their XP up to the next level as quest XP if they are close enough. I may as well ask them every 4 encounters or so if they are ready to level, or have each level up after a particularly tough boss fight. New characters to join the party should always start on the same XP total as the other characters, and they should never have different totals. This ensures a level playing field. This may require an overhaul to my favourite part of 4th, DM encounter design, but that can work on a purely points buy based system if required.
MONSTER & NPC STATS VS PC STATS
4th is wonderful to DM because encounter design is so easy, mainly due to the distinction between PC stat blocks and Monster stat blocks. This simply needs to be kept, but streamlined. The number of powers must be significantly reduced, and similar powers for monsters and PCs should be made the same. A Fireball should always be a Fireball, and Invisibility should always be Invisibility. This is good news for players too, as there should be achievable ways of gaining the signature abilities of monsters, and vice versa. The Stoneskin Contingency of the 3.5 era NPC wizard is once again feared, and the dwarf barbarian can relish his new pair of Bulletteskin Gloves that grant him burrowing. This should also allow for easy DM monster design, something that was conspicuously absent in 4th.
FEATS
Should be made modular like powers.
CHARACTER CONCEPTS
The core books should have a Character Concept for each Power Source/Role combination, with the iconic titles of the basic classes, such as Elf Ranger, Human Fighter, Halfling Thief, etc. Basically like D&D Essentials. These characters are basically premade characters with all the choices already made, and the game should be able to play straight out of the box like this. Character creation will involve coming up with a Character Concept, then choosing the best, or most interesting, way of representing and building that character using the Role/Power Source combinations.
If I wanted to build a Stealthy Assassin, for example, chances are I will be building a striker, so I would choose some cool powers and/or feats from the striker list. However, I also get to choose where he gets his power from. He may use magical study or ability to stay undetected or become a more efficient killer, in which case I would pick from the Arcane list. If, on the other hand, he was an agent of a god's wrath in the mortal realm, I would likely choose him some divine powers and/or feats. This way, people get to build the characters they want to build, without having to feel restricted by a draconian class structure.
As an exercise, perhaps think about how these concepts could be implemented: A loyal bodyguard, a tribal medicine man, a ruthless bountyhunter, a benevolent thief, or an eccentric inventor.
Thanks for reading.
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2005
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LEVEL 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 in different supplements. Eg the monster manual for Heroic Tier should be entitled:
Monster Manual I "Harrowing Encounters for Heroic Characters" (Levels 1-10)
Monster Manual 2 "Punishing Encounters for Paragon Characters" (Levels 11-20)
Monster Manual 3 "Impossible Challenges for Epic Characters" (Levels 21-30)
Preferably with Dungeon Masters Guides and Player's Handbooks to accompany them. The reason for this being is that many groups never get past heroic tier. Most of our campaigns end around level 8 or 9, and all of this extra stuff for paragon and epic never sees play. It is wasting space in our books. I am using 4th edition examples, but the same is true of our extensive experience with 3.5. This way, the books can be released in waves, and picking up the set of Paragon books for your level 10 characters would be an event for both the players and the DMs. I know I am sick of ending up on the pages with Orcus and Lolth, knowing that I will never get to play them...
Do you realize how many people would shout "Cash grabbing, greedy, soulless WotC!" and swear off of the game just for this? To play through level 30 would REQUIRE 3 books for the players, and 6 more for the DM.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
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LEVEL 1-20 This 1-30 POWERS GOOD BAD This VANCIANT SYSTEM GOOD Hmmm I'd go with good over bad, but is mediocre an option? BAD CLASS ROLES GOOD BAD - As they currently exist. Could they be good? Quite possibly, but not as 4e did it. MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY IMPORTANT NOT IMPORTANT This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x1000000000000000000000000000000 ABILITIES SCORES GOOD Necessary BAD A LOT OF CLASSES GOOD Again, I'm in the middle, but I'm for lots of options so good. BAD A LOT OF RACES GOOD As stated above. BAD ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES YES This. It helps differentiate a human from a half orc. NO FEATS (AND OTHER OPTIONS) THAT GIVES YOU STATIC +X BONUSES GOOD - Good to have them. BAD HIT POINTS GOOD - Necessary. BAD HEALING SURGES GOOD BAD - Beyond terrible. Seriously !@#$ this. DEFENSES AS AC - Keep with the classic AS DAMAGE RESISTANCE SKILL CHALLENGES GOOD BAD - As they currently exist SKILLS HAS TO BE IMPORTANT - Midline. If we have skills, they need to be important. But I wouldn't lose sleep if they did away with skills. NOT IMPORTANT NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT 50% AS NOW - THIS. MORE LIKE 75% ALIGNMENT IS MECHANICAL FLUFF - Definitely SAVE OR DIE GOOD - We need more lethality in the game. BAD
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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LEVEL 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 in different supplements. Eg the monster manual for Heroic Tier should be entitled:
Monster Manual I "Harrowing Encounters for Heroic Characters" (Levels 1-10)
Monster Manual 2 "Punishing Encounters for Paragon Characters" (Levels 11-20)
Monster Manual 3 "Impossible Challenges for Epic Characters" (Levels 21-30)
Preferably with Dungeon Masters Guides and Player's Handbooks to accompany them. The reason for this being is that many groups never get past heroic tier. Most of our campaigns end around level 8 or 9, and all of this extra stuff for paragon and epic never sees play. It is wasting space in our books. I am using 4th edition examples, but the same is true of our extensive experience with 3.5. This way, the books can be released in waves, and picking up the set of Paragon books for your level 10 characters would be an event for both the players and the DMs. I know I am sick of ending up on the pages with Orcus and Lolth, knowing that I will never get to play them...
Do you realize how many people would shout "Cash grabbing, greedy, soulless WotC!" and swear off of the game just for this? To play through level 30 would REQUIRE 3 books for the players, and 6 more for the DM.
I am just suggesting what I would want to see, as is the purpose of this thread. I would rather use everything in the books I buy, than have to filter through the paragon and epic stuff to find heroic. I suppose it wouldn't be as much of an issue if they arranged the books by tier instead of actually having different books, but I figured they could use the space to add more content. Also, you'll find that players and dms already need to shell out a lot, MMII, MMIII, DMGII, PHBII and PHBIII. That makes 8 total with the core books. I am proposing 9, with the content arguably distributed more logically. Alternatively, make everything available as PDF in addition to books, and sell them cheap as chips. You seem to be concerned with the price of books rather than the actual suggested change, and that is a different issue.
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2009
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Great Idea Leichenreiter, heres my 2 cents LEVEL 1-30 , I have enjoyed the differnt tiers in 4e POWERS GOOD, I dont think i could go back to a powerless rpg system. This is what won me over in 4e and DND in general VANCIANT SYSTEM BAD CLASS ROLES GOOD, I really enjoy class rolls myself MAGIC ITEMS HAS TO BE MECHANICALLY NOT IMPORTANT ABILITIES SCORES GOOD A LOT OF CLASSES GOOD, A MUST!! A LOT OF RACES GOOD , Another Must!! ABILITY SCORES FOR RACES YES HIT POINTS GOOD, Is there any other way? HEALING SURGES GOOD , Great! DEFENSES AS AC SKILL CHALLENGES GOOD , Some Changes need be made, but a great idea SKILLS HAS TO BE IMPORTANT, More Skills? NORMAL CHANCE TO HIT 60% ? ALIGNMENT IS MECHANICAL SAVE OR DIE BAD
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