Well since they seem to think that Demogorgon needs work I think it's good that they try to flesh him out somehow. Still needs lotsa work though. And I wouldn't try to make anyone appreciate free market democrazy principles. That's something Cthulhu would do, though, being a master of madness. :)
View full commentWell since they seem to think that Demogorgon needs work I think it's good that they try to flesh him out somehow. Still needs lotsa work though.
And I wouldn't try to make anyone appreciate free market democrazy principles. That's something Cthulhu would do, though, being a master of madness. :)
Pondering the direction of skills. I asked myself what skills would I say I possessed in my life. Sadly, I can only think of two exemplary (Carpentry and Performance - day job vs. aspiring actor). My conclusion is this: *Skills are vague in most cases - Looking at Perform (not a listed SKILL in this iteration as yet), obviously there are many types of performance (Dance, Oration, Acting, Painting, Sculpting, etc.). So it seems to me that a general Skill (ARTISTRY) can represent a sub-skill...
View full commentPondering the direction of skills. I asked myself what skills would I say I possessed in my life. Sadly, I can only think of two exemplary (Carpentry and Performance - day job vs. aspiring actor). My conclusion is this:
*Skills are vague in most cases - Looking at Perform (not a listed SKILL in this iteration as yet), obviously there are many types of performance (Dance, Oration, Acting, Painting, Sculpting, etc.). So it seems to me that a general Skill (ARTISTRY) can represent a sub-skill or several.
*Skills can vary with type of game - DRIVE, for instance isn't necessarily a useful skill for a fantasy game where most vehicles are animal powered. Handle Animal you say? As would I, but, should Handle Animal be generalized to all animals? Can a horse trainer equally be a lion tamer? I say no. But, If we generalize Handle Animal and produce sub-skills therein (Horses, Lions, Dogs, etc.), we can say that a skill an be flexible contingent on another factor. What might that be? See below.
*Advancement - Should a character that makes little use of a certain skill advance the same as one who makes greater use? IMO, no. How do we progress then? This is where we are with our playtesting.
SUMMERY:
*Skills should be an optional, but in the basic package.
*The list should include general/specific skills (under different game types - fantasy, sci-fy, dark age, etc.) The ability score to represent should be flexible depending on the group (i.e. - Climb might be Str or Dex based or average of both).
*A skill that can be broken down into sub-skills can be adjudicated by ability score modifiers. Handle Animal (potentially based out of Cha) might cover one or more animal types based on modifier.
*Base Modifier - IMO the Skill Die works.
*Advancement - Feat based. All start with their (four?) skills (which may have subs, broadening variety) and beginning level Skill Die (d8?). Buy Skill advancement with feats - die increase, specialist, etc.)
This does not square with my experience of female gamers. The most common complaint I get from women at the table is that they're bored by number-crunching and cautious exploration, and want to fast-forward to the part where they get to strew monster guts all over the dungeon (preferably described by the DM in graphic detail). As far as relationships go, it's mostly seducing bad guys to gain the advantage over them, or casual sex with no consequences. The only players I've ever seen looking for...
View full commentThis does not square with my experience of female gamers. The most common complaint I get from women at the table is that they're bored by number-crunching and cautious exploration, and want to fast-forward to the part where they get to strew monster guts all over the dungeon (preferably described by the DM in graphic detail). As far as relationships go, it's mostly seducing bad guys to gain the advantage over them, or casual sex with no consequences. The only players I've ever seen looking for in-game love and romance have been male.
I think their are factors that make romance in campaigns more likely. A DM can increase their chances of romance or other high roleplay options by just creating a more interactive world. Players should feel a part of the world rather than a game peice being railroaded from one dungeon to the next. Npcs should be given flavor so that players remember them and want to spend more time with them. Players need to take the attitude that the world and its cast of characters are not just numbers to be...
View full commentI think their are factors that make romance in campaigns more likely. A DM can increase their chances of romance or other high roleplay options by just creating a more interactive world. Players should feel a part of the world rather than a game peice being railroaded from one dungeon to the next. Npcs should be given flavor so that players remember them and want to spend more time with them. Players need to take the attitude that the world and its cast of characters are not just numbers to be added or subtracted. I have found that in campaigns where the DM encourages a backstory are more likely to have romances. When romance does happen in a campaign I find the player is more emotionally engaged, especially if the gm uses it in the plot. I think it also depends on the people involved, male or female, if romance is something they want from a story it will happen.
If we are headed down a thematic route for feats both the separate types and the one feat gives all benefits aproach could fit. Maybe as said below feats need to move away from single mechanic bonuses and encompass a broader effect with multiple bonuses to all aspects of the game. This may mean fewer feats but there could be variations on a feat to give slightly different bonuses and add more flavour to the characters.
I definately like separating the combat bonuses from the other types of bonuses. Having feats focus on combat, while things like backgrounds and "traits" can handle other types of benefits sounds like it will allow players the ability to choose things that they would like their character to have without worrying about lagging behind in combat.
Clerics were more fun in 2nd edition. They were still healers which is (to me) their main distinction, but they did not fall behind as fast on the "I can hit that" scale because feats did not exist. In trying to balance the cleric in 3rd ed. someone somwhere thought they needed to have the same amount spells per day and the same top spell level as wizards. sounds good...but that means they have to lose ground in combat. But the 1st and 2nd edition description of cleric call the class a holy...
View full commentClerics were more fun in 2nd edition. They were still healers which is (to me) their main distinction, but they did not fall behind as fast on the "I can hit that" scale because feats did not exist. In trying to balance the cleric in 3rd ed. someone somwhere thought they needed to have the same amount spells per day and the same top spell level as wizards. sounds good...but that means they have to lose ground in combat. But the 1st and 2nd edition description of cleric call the class a holy WARRIOR. Give clerics less magic at the top 7th level resurrection should be just about the most powerful healing in existence anyway. Then give them back some martial power, and make them really shine vs. undead.
OR take the route 2nd edition eluded to but never really fleshed out. Gods have priest, and clerics and Druids are just two kinds of priests. then the cleric I described above would be like a priest of Kord etc. and a spell throwing buff-giver type would be a priest of some other god.
1. The Cleric Is a Healer: “This one should seem obvious, but it's worth making it clear that we assume that clerics can heal and that their abilities should reflect that. A player new to D&D who creates a cleric could focus on keeping the rest of the characters on their feet, and the mechanics would make that easy to understand and do.” - M.Mearls No, absolutely not. Especially not at the top of the list. A Cleric has the ability to aid his allies, including the ability to Heal...
View full comment1. The Cleric Is a Healer:
“This one should seem obvious, but it's worth making it clear that we assume that clerics can heal and that their abilities should reflect that. A player new to D&D who creates a cleric could focus on keeping the rest of the characters on their feet, and the mechanics would make that easy to understand and do.” - M.Mearls
No, absolutely not. Especially not at the top of the list. A Cleric has the ability to aid his allies, including the ability to Heal them, but this is not his Role. That’s right, you’re trying to pigeon-hole the Cleric as a Heal-bot by giving them the Role of Healer (Remember how you said you weren’t going to force Role’s on Players?!). Put this at the bottom of the list, or take it out altogether since it’s part of #2. Stating this as a Goal for the class disgusts me, it takes the focus off Roleplaying a Divine Servant and shoves it squarely onto playing a heal-bot
2. The Cleric Is a Divine Spellcaster:
I can agree with this as M.Mearls writes it. It is important that the Cleric not outstrip the other core classes by being able to do what they do, only better (using the #4 and #5 points as examples).
3. Divine Magic Is Subtle and Indirect:
I have no problems with this as M.Mearls interprets it.
4. The Cleric Is an Armored Warrior:
I think this can be true and so should be an option for the Cleric, through backgrounds and themes. I think a Clerics choice of Divine should play a large part of what kind of Cleric is being played.
5. Clerics Reflect the Gods:
Yes, absolutely agree with M.Mearls here. I’d go further, and say that each Cleric’s individual abilities and skills are tied to their choice of Divine.
I don't recall ever mentioning I'm teaching noobs, but either way when a character dies and is unable to return for any reason (story wise, not enough resources to resurrect, player wants a new character) the only option is to create a new character at a higher level than 1. If the rest of the party are paragon then a new character should be within +/-1 level of them. Level 1 PCs would be useless and die every combat at paragon tier. By only selecting the recommended options in the builder...
View full commentI don't recall ever mentioning I'm teaching noobs, but either way when a character dies and is unable to return for any reason (story wise, not enough resources to resurrect, player wants a new character) the only option is to create a new character at a higher level than 1. If the rest of the party are paragon then a new character should be within +/-1 level of them. Level 1 PCs would be useless and die every combat at paragon tier.
By only selecting the recommended options in the builder then yes it can be done in under an hour, but you'll have a bland generalised character. I have created and played dozens of 4th ed characters and my players have created over a hundred between them. Only about 4 of our combined characters have used retraining, and then no more than twice per character.
I speed read all the powers and magic items so I can quickly look at one and within a few seconds get a basic feel of it. This way I can move on to ones I actually want to read in depth. But still, creating a level 16 character takes hours as this needs to be done at every level. If you have some strategies that you use to speed up the process of creating a detailed character please share them, I'll be very interested to pass it onto my players.
We don't want to optimise every aspect, just ensure that power, feats, and items all work together to make something useful and fun. Doing this takes time as you weight up options. My players and I are not interested in a rushed character.
I am not implying that you are interested in teaching noobs, but you did mention in a previous post that the lag in time was especially when introducing a noob, and that is what I was addressing. I do actually make higher level characters after character death or when a new player joins, if I can't run them through a few solos to level them up that way anyway. I don't use the various extra options in the CB because I don't the options just in the PHB 1-3 boring or generic. I find there is...
View full commentI am not implying that you are interested in teaching noobs, but you did mention in a previous post that the lag in time was especially when introducing a noob, and that is what I was addressing. I do actually make higher level characters after character death or when a new player joins, if I can't run them through a few solos to level them up that way anyway.
I don't use the various extra options in the CB because I don't the options just in the PHB 1-3 boring or generic. I find there is more than enough just in those 3 books to keep the game going for years without getting boring at all. I do tend to add in the first Powers books as well, because some of my players wanted more options, and I had been promising to add them in, once support for every current powersource was out equally. That still doesn't add much. I do not allow Dragon Magazine content, because among other things, its not in a printed book, and that is oe requirement at my table. I have to A. Own the Source Material, and B. Approve it for play. Not all my players are DDI subscribers, and shoot, I didn't allow all the splat content in the older editions when I ran them either, going all the way back to the beginning. I was probably the very last DM in our area to okay the use of the Unearthed Arcana in 1e AD
These re excellent goals for the right kinds of players. It all depends on what your players playstyle is, and what the theme of the campaign/adventure is. My players would hunt down the orcs that run away, fearing they would bring reinforcements. Once battle is joined, its joined in their minds. They will try diplomacy at the outset, but once blood is shed, its kill them all, let the gods sort them out. Now, they have played a few battles where the goal was to save the children before they...
View full commentThese re excellent goals for the right kinds of players. It all depends on what your players playstyle is, and what the theme of the campaign/adventure is. My players would hunt down the orcs that run away, fearing they would bring reinforcements. Once battle is joined, its joined in their minds. They will try diplomacy at the outset, but once blood is shed, its kill them all, let the gods sort them out.
Now, they have played a few battles where the goal was to save the children before they were sacrificed. This is one of the ones that motivates them greatly...so sad that they didn't save the first batch of kids...but that only fueled their fire, so the next batch they were bound and determined to save, and pulled out all their healing and protective magic to do so.
They do try to keep 1 intelligent enemy alive to question, but that doesn't happen a lot. I find with my particular group of players right now, its grind combat, role play sessions, and an occasional trap or puzzle to figure out. All of which take time to go through. These guys can't buy a loaf of bread in under 30 mins. They roleplay all the haggling, detail their supplies, not just "rations for 9 people for 10 days" they lug around a wagon when above ground, and the Rogue/Bard will defend her right to her wagon with her life (Past DM trauma, seems in other groups she's played in, Pathfinder mostly, their DMs had a fondness for killing off the horses and disabling/stealing/destroying the wagons....her Husband being one of the biggest culprits...but he won't play 4e)
Anyway, yes, there are ways to speed combat up, make encounters quick but memorable, but they are dependent on the theme of the game, the style of the players, and how the dice fall as well. My guys would never, for instance, go for a 1 or 2 dice roll quick combat resolution. No matter how elegant I presented the option to save time. They are also, however, willing to put in the time and effort, and bemoan the fact we only get 4hrs play
As far as I'm concerned, there are two kinds of Save or Die mechanics. The easy ones are those wielded by the PCs. If the scope of your game doesn't revolve around small numbers of long, dragged-out encounters (for example, in politics-heavy intrigue games, or old-school-style megadungeons), save-or-die effects are a great way to deal with some kinds of foes *quickly*, while still depleting strategic resources. Hit point *percentage* thresholds (like the bloodied condition in 4e was) lose...
View full commentAs far as I'm concerned, there are two kinds of Save or Die mechanics.
The easy ones are those wielded by the PCs. If the scope of your game doesn't revolve around small numbers of long, dragged-out encounters (for example, in politics-heavy intrigue games, or old-school-style megadungeons), save-or-die effects are a great way to deal with some kinds of foes *quickly*, while still depleting strategic resources. Hit point *percentage* thresholds (like the bloodied condition in 4e was) lose the gloriously fast speed of resolution.
I think absolute hit point thresholds (like with Hold Person in the playtest), though, are *fantastic*. Two thresholds (say 10 hp and 50 hp) would lets you deathspell crowds of kobolds automatically, force a rival wizard to save or die, and have a dragon laugh it off every time, (as he should). The catch is that you have to discipline yourself not to use these abilities on PCs without making sure it has some mechanic to mitigate the effect. That means no randomly giving major demons no-warning deathspells that work on appropriately-leveled heroes. Looking at you, TSR and 3e. Monsters and NPCs exist only to suck and die, but players don't.
The real problem is attacks that kill or paralyze *PCs* in one hit with no warning. You could ditch them, but you're restricting yourself. Those *are* useful to two kinds of game. In a more gonzo game you might WANT PCs to die on a bad run of luck. Playing "Who got Gibbed the Hardest" is half the fun. And seventeen years of DMing has taught me that even if you run a less bloody game, the most dangerous form of this ability can create a lot of useful table drama and encourage players to come up with crazy schemes to evade it. but you need three things to keep it fair: the PCs absolutely *NEED* a warning, an avenue of escape, and a gimmick you can plan to avoid having to save (say, medusas and mirrors).
Save-or-die is a dangerous, but useful tool. Leave it in, but warn new DMs when you use it.
"The biggest drawback is that spellcasters and monsters have to be aware of a target's hit points to decide if an attack makes sense." Not necessarily. Just make sure that if the target FAILS their save, but is ABOVE the hit point threshold, he or she suffers hit point damage. For example: Medusa's Gaze Successful save: Negates Failed saved: If target has 30 or fewer hit points, target is turned to stone. Otherwise, target loses 20 hit points. I don't want to see...
View full comment"The biggest drawback is that spellcasters and monsters have to be aware of a target's hit points to decide if an attack makes sense."
Not necessarily. Just make sure that if the target FAILS their save, but is ABOVE the hit point threshold, he or she suffers hit point damage.
For example:
Medusa's Gaze
Successful save: Negates
Failed saved: If target has 30 or fewer hit points, target is turned to stone. Otherwise, target loses 20 hit points.
I don't want to see Medusa trying to chip away at PC hit points with a dagger or the snakes on her head. The gaze IS the key attack, and always should be.
Totally agree w/Katalia369. Make it an option. It should -not- be automatic, and it should not be impossible or discouraged. It depends on what the group decides they want from the experience, and the D&D experience, IMVHO, isn't necessarily about magically attracting followers and receiving permission to build a stronghold at a set level -although if a player wants to hire people, or commission some kind of HQ, well, that should be possible and yeah, there should be rules somewhere for it,...
View full commentTotally agree w/Katalia369. Make it an option. It should -not- be automatic, and it should not be impossible or discouraged. It depends on what the group decides they want from the experience, and the D&D experience, IMVHO, isn't necessarily about magically attracting followers and receiving permission to build a stronghold at a set level -although if a player wants to hire people, or commission some kind of HQ, well, that should be possible and yeah, there should be rules somewhere for it, maybe simple ones in the core product(s) and crunchier stuff in some rules module.
What I would like, though, is that it's not a given reward available from a certain level or stuff like that. Not a feat, not a class feature, not that kind of stuff. If you got the money, knock yourself out. If you wanna build a castle, talk about it with the local head honcho, grant them your fealty as a vassal, be knighted, receive a barony, whatever, and start building. You wanna skip the RP details? As long as it's fine with the others, go for it. Want your dominion to play a big role in the game? Same as above, talk about it and see if it's OK for everyone. Possibly not at the last minute -the earlier, the better. Social contract, you know (which in D&D could really stop being "unspoken" -a clearly agreed on, defined social contract would do wonders for the whole experience, but I digress).
In summary, I don't think it should be one of those 'rewards' you automatically get when you reach some arbitrary level -it should depend on many factors, like your social class, how much money you got, your relationships with the royals, where you decide to build your stronghold, wether you decide to conquer someone else's and refurbish it... story stuff. If the mechanics can support it, all the better. If not... well, at least mention it can be done and suggest some how-tos in the DM's guide, right?
Personally I like to run (I am almost always the DM in our campaigns) sandbox games. In other words, no set adventures, just engaging characters in a detailed world and I let my players decide what direction they want to take their characters. This means that I would like to have this option as my players tend to go for "conquering the world" type of ambition. For that you need armies, castles, followers, etc (I used a HEAVILY modified version of Birthright rules to do this, but I truly miss a...
View full commentPersonally I like to run (I am almost always the DM in our campaigns) sandbox games. In other words, no set adventures, just engaging characters in a detailed world and I let my players decide what direction they want to take their characters. This means that I would like to have this option as my players tend to go for "conquering the world" type of ambition. For that you need armies, castles, followers, etc (I used a HEAVILY modified version of Birthright rules to do this, but I truly miss a good solid system for stuff like this in almost any RPG system out there. The first game that does this well will have a very loyal customer in me; currently this is done best in Rogue Trader). The thing is, this should not be tied to level. Are all kings a level 16 Fighter? Probably not. This is the type of thing that should be a focus of your campaign, a support for back story in your campaign, or not be used at all, regardless of character level.
And do not limit yourself here either. Don't stop at 1 castle. Make it scale properly; it should work if you just want a small band of followers, but it should scale all the way up to ruling empires, managing armies and leading crusades across entire worlds. This includes a conflict resolution system between organizations, armies and empires. Thieves guild versus merchants, barons versus kings, empire against empire.
And I wouldn't try to make anyone appreciate free market democrazy principles. That's something Cthulhu would do, though, being a master of madness. :)
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