50% of Enworld members polled say they have quit on the 5e playtest

www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339...

Surprised? Im actually more motivated to play than ever, but thats bc I like the new packet and want to play critfisher builds.


I don't think I am surprised and I think it is to be expected given the evolution of this playtest.

I'm not surprised that half dropped out.

PF folks really like that game.

I AM surprised that half are still in it.
Keep in mind that this isn't just a horde of people throwing up their hands and quitting out of hatred for the new rules. There are plenty of people who have stopped playtesting because they just want to wait for the full version. Some people would prefer to run a long-term game using a finished, polished system, and there are only so many times you can run a one-shot with playtest rules before you've done all you can. It doesn't mean they don't like the system, it could be as simple as that they're adults who only have time for one game per week, and they want to spend that time on a fully fleshed-out campaign.
Oh yeah, I get all of that. It still seems really high to me. At least it does now that I like the packets. Earlier in the playtest I would have told you I expected this.
I am not surprised. I knew the playtest would be a long and tedious process and that not everyone who signed up would stick around after seeing liked/disliked stuff being pushed and pulled, twisted and flipped over and over during developement cycles. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I'd just like to quite the first post.

I've heard a few comments recently about folks who have stopped playtesting. It's not that they don't like D&D (or even D&D Next) but they are at the point where they're now just happy to wait for the actual book. Then, of course, you have folks who pore over every playtest package and debate the minutia.


While many people have stopped, not all of them due to dislike.



And i pesonally know one group who stopped due to things changing every packet.  It was simply too unstable for them.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Also. there are certainly people who stopped playtesting because their group simply dropped and can't really do so anymore.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Yeah, that is why I said "quit the playtest" not "quit the playtest bc they hated the game". Still, you have to figure people that love it would continue to play it.
Also. there is certainly peoples who stopped playtesting because their group simply stopped and can't really do so anymore.



What I'm seeing is that some players have only so much time available to devote to the hobby. 
Given the option of either PLAYING in a stable campaign...  OR PLAYTESTING a constantly changing product...
They're resuming their regular sessions with whatever system they like.   

My group can play at least twice a week.  I stopped playtesting so I could focus on my campaign and setting.  Luckily, my brother took over the playtest.  A long playtest just was not for me as I enjoy playing with my own world.
Some people quit who still like it.
Some people continue who hate the direction it is going in.
Why would this be surprising?
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Some people quit who still like it. Some people continue who hate the direction it is going in. Why would this be surprising?



50% dropping out just seems like a hell of a lot to me. I was under the impression that a majority of players were really into it. This is actually the time when they need ptesters the most, as the "real" math and breakable bits are about to come down the pike.

Aug 5, 2013 -- 11:02AM, Verdegris_Sage wrote:

Some people quit who still like it. Some people continue who hate the direction it is going in. Why would this be surprising?




50% dropping out just seems like a hell of a lot to me. I was under the impression that a majority of players were really into it. This is actually the time when they need ptesters the most, as the "real" math and breakable bits are about to come down the pike.


With each new playtest package some fall out, but others join in. The poll the OP is referring to only polls people on EN boards who have stopped playtesting. It does not mention how many people currently playtest the game.

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

our group started a campaign at 1st level with the first packet and have kept it going, changing our characters to fit our original concepts with each new packet. We have made it to 9th level and are looking forward to re-making our characters with the newest material. some packets fit what we are doing, some have not. either way we have enjoyed the process and continue to give our feedback.

also keep in mind the people who took that poll are the ones who post on the forums. Next has over 10000 playtesters. I am certain a majority of those play testers do not post regularly on ENWorld forums. As long as they respond to WoTC I wouldn't be to concerned with what is said on another forum. 

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

50% dropping out just seems like a hell of a lot to me. I was under the impression that a majority of players were really into it. This is actually the time when they need ptesters the most, as the "real" math and breakable bits are about to come down the pike.

It's 50% of 165 people on a site where you need to have an account to vote. To say that it is indicative of anything other than the population of EN would be an understatement.

All data is useful, and I hope the designers can find value in this information... but it doesn't mean much in regards to how the general populace is liking the game. It means that half of the RPG enthusiasts on this website picked up a super-simple game, tried it out, than put it down and moved on. To apply my own conjecture more plainly, I think it's just a matter of these people being so enamoured with RPGs that they don't stick to any one in particular for long. Especially one with as few distinct bits to try out as the Next playtest.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
50% dropping out just seems like a hell of a lot to me. I was under the impression that a majority of players were really into it. This is actually the time when they need ptesters the most, as the "real" math and breakable bits are about to come down the pike.

It's 50% of 165 people on a site where you need to have an account to vote. To say that it is indicative of anything other than the population of EN would be an understatement.

All data is useful, and I hope the designers can find value in this information... but it doesn't mean much in regards to how the general populace is liking the game. It means that half of the RPG enthusiasts on this website picked up a super-simple game, tried it out, than put it down and moved on. To apply my own conjecture more plainly, I think it's just a matter of these people being so enamoured with RPGs that they don't stick to any one in particular for long. Especially one with as few distinct bits to try out as the Next playtest.



Ok, I am putting you down as "not surprised".
Also. there is certainly peoples who stopped playtesting because their group simply stopped and can't really do so anymore.



What I'm seeing is that some players have only so much time available to devote to the hobby. 
Given the option of either PLAYING in a stable campaign...  OR PLAYTESTING a constantly changing product...
They're resuming their regular sessions with whatever system they like.   



For me, that's at least part of it.  I have numerous active characters in 4e LFR, as well as an active boardgaming group which plays once or twice a week, and several RPGs I'd like to try which AREN'T in constant flux - so I and my group were vaguely interested in playtesting early on, btu it competes with playing things we know we'd enjoy, and things which we can actually prepare for in advance.  Plus, the remainder of my social life, a house to paint, a wedding to plan, in short, real life.  I just don't have time to sit down and learn a whole new system every month or two in order to playtest effectively, and to be honest, I wouldn't want to do it ineffectively.

Plus, these days, I've been pretty completely turned off the game.  The latest packet is a bit more interesting than the middle ones, but it's still no better than a half dozen other retclones, and I'm not specially interested in playing any of those, either.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Ok, I am putting you down as "not surprised".

Heh. Yup, that sounds 'bout right.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
I am not surprised at all, the constant changes, the availablility of many other good games, ect.
I am thinking about trying 13th Age in place of my normal Next game slot for the duration of the current packet because I dislike it, but still not sure.

Few points I would like to make.
1. The poll was started the day before the current packet was released so depending on when people voted some more might have dropped out now.
2. You do have to register to vote in the poll [like almost every website/forum I've ever seen] but it is easy and free to register.
3. Love EnWolrd,  best rpg news site around good job everyone overthere.

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

I'm no too surprised. I know just timing wise all my groups are moving to the unserviceable part of the year where we can't schedule anything and when we can we want to hack away at our existing campaigns. I don't see being able to get together anything but a few pickup games with my roomies for the playtest rught now.
There are a lot of games available and this playtest went a long time with stale packets.  I am not surprised that a lot of players may have dropped off and are back to their home games.   One hopes that these players will take another look at the finished product once it launches.
I am very campaign focused.  I don't care of one off D&D.  So I have run some playstest sessions on and off but I'm probalby one of those who has quit the playtest because I've missed a few.   I will still buy D&D if it's a good game.   The survey in fact is positive not negative.   People are lazy.  
I'm no too surprised. I know just timing wise all my groups are moving to the unserviceable part of the year where we can't schedule anything and when we can we want to hack away at our existing campaigns. I don't see being able to get together anything but a few pickup games with my roomies for the playtest rught now.


Agreed, I've only played three games of D&D this summer because of vacations and whatnot, but that doesn't mean I don't care about the playtest. At the end of the month, I'll be moving into college so I'll have to find a new group to play with which means more time not playtesting.

I do agree that more people are needed at this stage to figure out the math, but D&D fans have an astonishing ability to exploit flaws in the math, so I don't see that being a real problem. 
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
So how many people frequent the ENWorld site?  Only 170 people voted in this poll.  And 85 people say they are no longer participating in the playtest (with no explanation given as to why).

On the other side, we have information from WotC saying that the number of playtesters has been increasing, numbering in the tens of thousands (has it broken 100k?).

I know that some people, for whatever reason, seem to really want this playtest (and D&D Next) to fail.  They really want everyone to believe that people are abandoning the playtest in droves, and that almost no one likes it.

Personally, I think that things are going well, and more and more people are joining the playtest.  Some people (often vocal people) don't like what they see, but that will always be true.
I am not surprised. I knew the playtest would be a long and tedious process and that not everyone who signed up would stick around after seeing liked/disliked stuff being pushed and pulled, twisted and flipped over and over during developement cycles. 

Exactly, and the constant attention about how the game feel or work goes against why most people play RPGs. There's finally more interest in the playtest between the sessions than when using it to play.
It's funny to see that I have also lost 50% of my playtest group with the previous placket. And this packet isn't changing anything.
If I were the designers I would find this disconcerting. ENworld was a bastion of 5E support when this all started. The true enemy of the game isn't people who hate the new edition enough to post about it. The real enemy is apathy. The people who just can't be buggered enough to log in, or play it, or talk about it. They are the ones leaving the hobby for good.

Stop the H4TE

If I were the designers I would find this disconcerting. ENworld was a bastion of 5E support when this all started. The true enemy of the game isn't people who hate the new edition enough to post about it. The real enemy is apathy. The people who just can't be buggered enough to log in, or play it, or talk about it. They are the ones leaving the hobby for good.


No one else in my gaming group posts on online forums that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean they don't care about the game, it just means they don't care about postin in online forums. They all liked Next a lot when we played it a month ago (except the ranger who is still lame).
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
If I were the designers I would find this disconcerting. ENworld was a bastion of 5E support when this all started. The true enemy of the game isn't people who hate the new edition enough to post about it. The real enemy is apathy. The people who just can't be buggered enough to log in, or play it, or talk about it. They are the ones leaving the hobby for good.


No one else in my gaming group posts on online forums that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean they don't care about the game, it just means they don't care about postin in online forums. They all liked Next a lot when we played it a month ago (except the ranger who is still lame).



So?

Stop the H4TE

This is not an unusual staistic, and I don't think it really says much about the state of DDN.  I've been involved in several (7? 10?) similar beta tests and pilot programs, and those times I've had access to the data, I've seen a similar drop in participants.  Many people join test groups because they think it means free access to a full product, and don't understand that it's a fair amount of drudgery for absolutely no material return.


Plus, of course, it's not like EnWorld is a neutral or representative cross-section of the potential gaming audience. 
 Any speculation about the fate of the game itself is way premature.
 
If I were the designers I would find this disconcerting. ENworld was a bastion of 5E support when this all started. The true enemy of the game isn't people who hate the new edition enough to post about it. The real enemy is apathy. The people who just can't be buggered enough to log in, or play it, or talk about it. They are the ones leaving the hobby for good.


No one else in my gaming group posts on online forums that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean they don't care about the game, it just means they don't care about postin in online forums. They all liked Next a lot when we played it a month ago (except the ranger who is still lame).



So?


Read the bolded part. The people who don't care about posting online are not apathetic people or people who are leaving the hoby, they are people who don't post online nothing more.
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
If you're a playtester and you don't think that playtest attrition isn't at least plausible then you need to rexamine your connection to reality. I've noticed several claims that participation is increaseing, but I want to point out that WotC has never made that a factual claim. WotC devs have only cited increasing figures in the number of people registered for the playtest, which is a number can't go down.

Playtest participation may very well be diminishing while registration steadily increases. What really matters is the rate of retention for playtesters. Consequently, It may be quite telling that we never get to see the actual number of responses that WotC recieves with each survey. I'm definitely participating less and seeing fewer new faces here. All of the Metro-area playtesters that I know have given up by now. They're pretty much split into two stances.

  1. A majority that have been convinced by the playtest that they just don't want D&DNext and won't buy it. They've dropped out because they feel it's better to invest their time and money in other games. 

  2. A minority that also don't like it but still follow the packets out of a combination of dwindling hope and morbid curiosity. A couple have told me that they will buy the 5e base books only because they want to own every edition of D&D and they're afraid of what Hasbro will do to the brand otherwise.


Now, that's just my personal anecdote, which could easily represent nothing in the grand scheme of D&D. Some attrition is to be expected with any playtest this long and it's hard to judge why people are giving up just on numbers. For instance, significant periodic changes to classes are definitely going to cause problems for many people who want to run the playtest as a campaign, even if they loved every packet.
www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339...

Surprised? Im actually more motivated to play than ever, but thats bc I like the new packet and want to play critfisher builds.


I don't think I am surprised and I think it is to be expected given the evolution of this playtest.





Doesn't surpise me.

Between my home, table-top group and the two groups I play with over Trapse, I have 17 players.  Most of them have helped me playtest.  At first I had too many.  I only wanted to run one playtest group.  But despite a lot of skepticism after 3rd and 4th editions, a lot of my players wanted to try Next.  And most were optimistic after the first playtest.  Since then, however, I've lost willing playtesters with each iteration of Next.

None were ever satisfied with wizards, or "mages", as they've been castrated in Next and reduced to an adventuring novelty act, capable only of parlor tricks that rid the battlefield of weak fodder, and make trivial explorational tasks a little more convenient.  I always had to NPC a Wizard just for the feedback, and I hated every minute of it.  Magic just isn't powerful any more, and doesn't feel like magic.  Might as well go cleric where your damage spells are as good or better than the wizards, and at least they have decent hit points, AC, attacks, and can heal to boot, basically making them a single classed gish.

Then expertise/martial die was introduced.  One of the main reasons we were interested in trying the playtest was the promise that it wouldn't rely on the battle grid, miniatures, Magic: The Gathering style powers and power cards, or any of the other money-making gimmicks that slowed game/campaign progress to a crawl.  The first playtest seemed to support this claim.  Then they added the expertise system and turned the game into a fist-full-o-dice edition.  Now the game was slowed with every player's turn as they threw fist-fulls of dice, chased them around the table, herding them together where each turn then became an excercise in boring, basic math.  Monster hit points had to be inflated to add even the slightest challenge, but never actually became a challenge.  The inflated hp just served to slow the game even more.  And I lost most of what was left of my playtesters.  And the ones that remained only did so to help out.

Now that it seems obvious that certain major aspects of the game isn't going to change, such as the fist-full-o-dice mechanics and the fact that developmental focus on character classes and their roles is going to remain the same as recent edition's MMO style approach to class roles and combat balance rather than the traditional and story oriented approach of pre-WotC editions, I have no players left to help me playtest any more.  No one wants to waste a night on an edition we will not be purchasing when we can instead play Labyrinth Lord and Dungeon Crawl Classics.

My last couple of surveys were answered based on my reading the rules and running scenarios by myself.  And I didn't even have the energy to do that this last playtest.  Never even filled out the survey.  It just seems pointless now.  Hell, it seems like the devs sit around pulling $hit out of their arses and smearing it on paper where they become rules.  There doesn't seem to be much formality and consistancy between the rules any more.  It's becoming 3rd edition's death of a thousand rules all over again.

Honestly, all WotC had to do was give us a simple AD&D style core, then publish certain key mechanics as options, or modules alongside the core release.  Modules dealing with varying skill systems, feats, powers, kits, prestiges, tiers, spell casting mechanics, battle grid options, etc, instead of shoving this bloated mish mash of unneeded complexity and MMO style combat balanced system down our throats.  There could have been room for both Theatre of the Mind and strategy simulation style play if they had gone about it right.  As it is, there are systems out there or soon to be released that handle these game styles better than Next.  Most of them indie developers that don't have to worry about corporate pandering to the whining masses of the MMO generation.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg)

I'm surprised that 50% of people who voted on a poll at ENW is considered relevant.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, “Are you really sure?”

www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339...

Surprised? Im actually more motivated to play than ever, but thats bc I like the new packet and want to play critfisher builds.



not suprised at all.
Started a playtest group with 20 people.
8 have totaly abandons playtesting so far, another 6 say it depended on the next big packet if they would bother continue (the recently released packet)

 
I'm surprised that 50% of people who voted on a poll at ENW is considered relevant.




They're not, but pretending they are is a quick way to make it look like doomsaying is relevent.
www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339...

Surprised? Im actually more motivated to play than ever, but thats bc I like the new packet and want to play critfisher builds.



not suprised at all.
Started a playtest group with 20 people.
8 have totaly abandons playtesting so far, another 6 say it depended on the next big packet if they would bother continue (the recently released packet)

 



If the ENWorld survey showed an impressive retention of Next playtesters...retro-lovers would laud it as proof of 5e's rising popularity.  However, given the result, they discredit it as meaningless. 

Gareson: But of course. And if you need an example...

I'm surprised that 50% of people who voted on a poll at ENW is considered relevant.



About as relevant as 27 people voting on these forums, hm?

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...  

By making that thread, seems like you thought on-line polling was worth it.

****************************************************

And I guess I'll put on my "Mythbuster" cap and point out that 10,000 downloads does not mean 10,000 playtests. I have downloaded playtest packages that I've never played. Think about it: a gaming company is giving away a free RPG system, with no strings attached. You think people feel obligated to playtest it in exchange for free stuff? Free music downloads in the early 2000s did not result in a wave of CD sales.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

By making that thread, seems like you thought on-line polling was worth it.


Nope. Just bored and created something to occupy ten seconds of my time every couple of hours.

Thanks for this ten seconds, by the way. 

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, “Are you really sure?”

www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339...

Surprised? Im actually more motivated to play than ever, but thats bc I like the new packet and want to play critfisher builds.



not suprised at all.
Started a playtest group with 20 people.
8 have totaly abandons playtesting so far, another 6 say it depended on the next big packet if they would bother continue (the recently released packet)

 



  We're still trucking through.  We have a campaign going, but we're seriously questioning why we don't just switch to a retro clone.  The last two packets saw a lot of players have their characters basically destroyed as the rules changes are dramatic.

@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie

www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339...

Surprised? Im actually more motivated to play than ever, but thats bc I like the new packet and want to play critfisher builds.



not suprised at all.
Started a playtest group with 20 people.
8 have totaly abandons playtesting so far, another 6 say it depended on the next big packet if they would bother continue (the recently released packet)

 



  We're still trucking through.  We have a campaign going, but we're seriously questioning why we don't just switch to a retro clone.  The last two packets saw a lot of players have their characters basically destroyed as the rules changes are dramatic.



having to change characters is not a concern, it is a playtest.
It isen't intended to be used to run long lasting campaigns at this point.
So we make up mew characters for each playtest session anyway to actualy test as many difrent mecanics as we can.