Races are still terrible

Little reason to play anything but Human, unless you want a Half-Orc fighter type.
The whole humans get +1 to all six ability scores is silly, they should be the baseline race if anything they should get a 2 floating +1's like the other races.

But to be honest I would play plenty of characters that are not human and I put min/maxing first in character creation.
You only need 2 abilty scores to be good at most classes, you have your primary abilty and a secondary ability score.

Examples
Wood Elves make perfect rogues, rangers, and monks.
Stout Halflings are good dex based fighters, rangers, ect..
Hill Dwarves are great barbarians and fighters.
Mountain Dwarves are great clerics.

Don't forget about the special abilities like darkvision, and free armor and weapon proficiencies.

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

My biggest problem with the Human is point buy or quirky rolls that come up almost all odd. You can easily manipulate things to get (almost) all even scores, and since the Ability Score Boost can give you +2 to a single score, you really don't want any Odd Scores after creation if you can help it. Would be good if they had requirements on odd scores (like 4E did with feats) or if you could only boost +1 to 2 scores.
The whole humans get +1 to all six ability scores is silly, they should be the baseline race if anything they should get a 2 floating +1's like the other races.

But to be honest I would play plenty of characters that are not human and I put min/maxing first in character creation.
You only need 2 abilty scores to be good at most classes, you have your primary abilty and a secondary ability score.

Examples
Wood Elves make perfect rogues, rangers, and monks.
Stout Halflings are good dex based fighters, rangers, ect..
Hill Dwarves are great barbarians and fighters.
Mountain Dwarves are great clerics.

Don't forget about the special abilities like darkvision, and free armor and weapon proficiencies.



I disagree, if you want to maximize ability scores and feats, no better race than a Human.

Darkvision is great, free proficiencies are useless. What good is a longsword to a Elf Mage? He will always use a cantrip for attacks, so it becomes an ornament. What good are armor or weapon proficiencies for a Mountain Dwarf Fighter?  

I also think you can make a better Human version of any of those racial examples you list.

Low-light vision can be achieved with a feat.

Immunity to sleep and charm are situational at best. 
Mountain Dwarves are probably IMO make the best wizards in the game, and probably the best Druids in the game as well especially with the new Heavy Armor Mastery feat.

Can you be a wizard that's nearly invulnerable in Mithril Plate?  Why, yes you can.......

-Polaris   


Examples
Wood Elves make perfect rogues, rangers, and monks.
Stout Halflings are good dex based fighters, rangers, ect..



I also like Stout Halflings for Monks. Being able to move through most enemies' spaces is as valuable as the speed bump imo, and the Lucky feature is great for multi-attackers. The Brave feature also fits the flavor profile; Monks shouldnt frighten easily. I make Con and Wis my secondary stats anyway, so the bonus evens out.
maybe we should be less concearned with what has the highest stats
and more with what is fun to play?

i mean, if the stats are higher and the fights are easier, isn't the DM just going to
add more goblins anyway?

check out the Homebrew Campaign Setting i'm working on, my customised character sheet for the final package, and a numbered index for all the bestiaries.

That's called ignoring a design flaw, which is how 3e got borked up.
maybe we should be less concearned with what has the highest stats
and more with what is fun to play?

i mean, if the stats are higher and the fights are easier, isn't the DM just going to
add more goblins anyway?



Well, I cant speak for everyone, but in my example it isnt just the stats that match up, its multiple class features as well.
maybe we should be less concearned with what has the highest stats
and more with what is fun to play?

i mean, if the stats are higher and the fights are easier, isn't the DM just going to
add more goblins anyway?



No because in a good well balanced game, there are rules for encounter building.  Plus if you kill more goblins faster then that just = faster xp gain.

The solution to bad game design is not let the DM fix it, the answer is don't design a bad game to begin with.

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

Gnomes bonus to saves is quite good. Add that to the paladin bonus and your neigh immune to spells.

Darkvision on a rogue is massive.

Lucky is basicly +1 to everything. Really powerful.

I agree weapon proficency and the bonus cantrip are basicly wothless.


IMO:
half-elf < elf < human < dwarf < gnome < half-orc < halfling

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Gnomes bonus to saves is quite good. Add that to the paladin bonus and your neigh immune to spells. Darkvision on a rogue is massive. Lucky is basicly +1 to everything. Really powerful. I agree weapon proficency and the bonus cantrip are basicly wothless. IMO: half-elf < elf < human < dwarf < gnome < half-orc < halfling



Thats about right, at least for this packet. Half-Orc, Halfling, and Gnome are def my faves at least. If the Human got a +2 to any, +1 to one other, it would be better but still not always the best choice imo. Id say give them a reroll mechanic but the Halfling already got it. I dont know what you do w the rest of the races though.
Gnomes bonus to saves is quite good. Add that to the paladin bonus and your neigh immune to spells. Darkvision on a rogue is massive. Lucky is basicly +1 to everything. Really powerful. I agree weapon proficency and the bonus cantrip are basicly wothless. IMO: half-elf < elf < human < dwarf < gnome < half-orc < halfling



They need more abilites that aren't so meh. Lucky, Gnome Cunning and Darkvision are about the only ones that are good.

Then if they had a good list of Racial abilities, they could make the Humans less stale and boring. (Even if they would be my only choice at creation, they are still boring) 

Setup a system where a Human can sacrifice a number of the +1 to stat increases in exchange for picking from a list of all the other racial abilities.

e.g. Human can sacrifice three +1 increases for the Lucky ability. 

For lesser abilities they can give up two or even as low as just one. Some abilites would be reserved so that Humans cannot select them. Darkvision and Halfling Nimbleness come to mind.

Also, if +1 to two abilities equates to a Feat for a class, why not for a Human? Or any race for that matter? Why can't a High Elf give up the bonuses to Dex and Int for Archery Master?
Nah. Let humans be simple and boring.

And i don't think you should be able to grab feats via a race.

But i do agree that darkvision/cunning/lucky are the fun abilities.
+5 speed is nice too, but not that strong.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

That's called ignoring a design flaw, which is how 3e got borked up.



Last I read the design team was carrying iconic race-class match ups into 5E.  It got all the Dwarf Mages upset.  IMO 3E was knowingly designed with flaws.  They call it system mastery.



"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Nah. Let humans be simple and boring.

In what universe does making a race purposefully boring equate to good game design? How about making them fun and interesting? Perish the thought, though. Why would we want fun and interesting in a game we play on our free time for fun?
In a universe where there are boing and/or simple people.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Something being "familiar" doesn't mean it's "boring" or "simple." Your taking it to mean that just means you're unimaginative.
Modern era defines boring as not supported mechanomathematically.  And black and white.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Oh I am so tired of threads like this.

Look. If you're running a good campaign, and your players are not a bunch of min/max powergamers, they're going to roleplay what they want anyways. Regardless of the fact that Humans get +1 to stats, in the 7 or 8 playtests I have done so far (each one not just one individual session, but running a different group of players) Humans have been a MINORITY. Even though they currently are more powerful, as you put it. In every Playtest event I've observed so far (have not participated in as I prefer to DM rather than play), Humans have been approx. 1/4 of the total characters made.

If it's as big of a problem as you really think it is, why are so many people choosing other options? DM's should be rewarding their group for roleplaying instead of penalizing them for not min/maxing. A player recently had to reroll his character so he went Paladin instead of Rogue, and even though we are only level 5 I told him, without him asking for it, to mark down a Celestial Hammer of Thunderbolts on his character sheet, because his character's story was awesome and it fit perfectly with his Paladin. That was of course before the new playtest packet, so we're probably going to temp-retire those characters anyways and move on to a new group for this packet.

TL;DR - These rage threads are getting old, if you want a balanced, rigidly structured game go play a video game, and min/max to your heart's content. This is about storytelling and roleplaying, Combat is a tool that is used to help. 
So it's allright for Human clerics and druids to be better than everyone?

No one is asking for perfectly rigid structure, we're asking for an obvious and massive imbalance to be corrected. 
I just wished they would get rid of Racial ability bonuses already.

I would love to see the Classes and perhaps the Backgrounds give out ability score bonuses... I was sad to see that the class ability scores disapear in the curent packet...

My housrule on humans came from 4e (based off the Half-Elf digalentte)
Humans: When a human gains their first class level, they may select one ability that doesn't scale of level 1 or 2 from another class and add it to their class at the same level.

A Human could pick up any one of the following from any class that aren't their own... The current list from this morning's game was the following

Barbarian: "Feral Instincts"
Cleric:        "Religious Study"
Druid:         "Druid Lore"
Fighter:      "Second Wind"
Mage:        "Esoteric Knowledge"
Monk:        "Slow Fall"
Paladin:     "Divine Sense"
Ranger:     "Tracking"
Rogue:      "Rogue's Cant"

This didn't really hurt the power level of the human but it did give some spark to the character's backstory. Like the Human Rogue who "stole" (he explained it as Thief from 8 Bit Theatre stealing the soul out of the Orb of Earth lol) the Druidic language from a Druid causing the Druid to be kicked out of their circle and is now out to kill the Rogue.

Oh I am so tired of threads like this.

TL;DR - These rage threads are getting old, if you want a balanced, rigidly structured game go play a video game, and min/max to your heart's content.



haha, rage thread. Only one raging here is you.

 
Oh I am so tired of threads like this.

Look. If you're running a good campaign, and your players are not a bunch of min/max powergamers, they're going to roleplay what they want anyways.

These rage threads are getting old, if you want a balanced, rigidly structured game go play a video game, and min/max to your heart's content. This is about storytelling and roleplaying, Combat is a tool that is used to help. 



OK First I am tired of people saying min/max powergamers are not roleplayers.  Min/maxing mostly happens away from the table during character creation and level up, it does not alter roleplaying that happens during the game.

Plenty of balanced, rigid tabletop rpg's exist already look at GURPS/HERO system/ heck I think Savage Worlds is pretty well balanced and is pretty rules light , all those people are playing a table top rpg not a video game and plenty of those people are great roleplayers.

Structure, rules, balance ect.. doesn't stop a pure roleplayer from playing what they want or how they want but not having  it does diminish the enjoyment of players like me and my group who want that part of the game and still like to roleplay.

EDIT: Plus min/maxing is not limited to combat.  If I am playing the party face I max out diplomacy, bluff, ect...a cleric min/max healing, one of the things I like to roleplay the most is the perception guy since that skill gets called for a lot I try to build character around that.

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

I would be totally fine if all racial traits were just fluff. If they cannot create balanced races that are all intriguing in their own way, just make them fluffy as hell and be done with it.
These rage threads are getting old, if you want a balanced, rigidly structured game go play a video game, and min/max to your heart's content. This is about storytelling and roleplaying, Combat is a tool that is used to help. 



It's not up to you what D&D is "about." Some people enjoy optimization. Maybe it's what the game is "about" for them. That's their call. They can't get the same experience with a video game because no video game is nearly as customizable as D&D is. Having an option that is clearly superior from an optimization perspective makes that aspect of the game less fun. It becomes less about decision-making and tradefoffs, and more about following a recipe. Furthermore, if the game is all about storytelling for you, that's great. Balancing humans won't make it any harder for you and your group to role-play, so you don't really have a dog in this fight. If you're tired of these threads, don't read them.

WOTC maybe are just forcing the majority of playtest to be on the vanilla race (humans) by giving them the best (yet most generic) bonus.

Which serves as a good, flat control to then experiment with other races latter.

Or maybe they are just having a durrrr moment during this part of design.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

So it's allright for Human clerics and druids to be better than everyone?

No one is asking for perfectly rigid structure, we're asking for an obvious and massive imbalance to be corrected. 



that isnt a problem in any of the games i have run using these rules. i would also expect you to do your job as a dm and if there is a problem at your table fix it yourself.
My biggest problem with the Human is point buy or quirky rolls that come up almost all odd. You can easily manipulate things to get (almost) all even scores, and since the Ability Score Boost can give you +2 to a single score, you really don't want any Odd Scores after creation if you can help it. Would be good if they had requirements on odd scores (like 4E did with feats) or if you could only boost +1 to 2 scores.


Ugh.  God no.  Attribute requirements need to die.  They're nothing but a concept tax.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Mountain Dwarves are probably IMO make the best wizards in the game, and probably the best Druids in the game as well especially with the new Heavy Armor Mastery feat.

Can you be a wizard that's nearly invulnerable in Mithril Plate?  Why, yes you can.......

-Polaris   



I agree; it took the hp failure of 3e and added more incentive to make a dwarven mage.  Sad...
My biggest problem with the Human is point buy or quirky rolls that come up almost all odd. You can easily manipulate things to get (almost) all even scores, and since the Ability Score Boost can give you +2 to a single score, you really don't want any Odd Scores after creation if you can help it. Would be good if they had requirements on odd scores (like 4E did with feats) or if you could only boost +1 to 2 scores.


Ugh.  God no.  Attribute requirements need to die.  They're nothing but a concept tax.


I agree, but I also feel like there needs to be a reason for odd scores to matter. If not feats, there should be some type of rules which play off of odd-score.

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.

My biggest problem with the Human is point buy or quirky rolls that come up almost all odd. You can easily manipulate things to get (almost) all even scores, and since the Ability Score Boost can give you +2 to a single score, you really don't want any Odd Scores after creation if you can help it. Would be good if they had requirements on odd scores (like 4E did with feats) or if you could only boost +1 to 2 scores.


Ugh.  God no.  Attribute requirements need to die.  They're nothing but a concept tax.


I agree, but I also feel like there needs to be a reason for odd scores to matter. If not feats, there should be some type of rules which play off of odd-score.


Depending on what it is and how it's implemented, I could get on board with that.  I just don't want to have to pump a limited resource (i.e. rolled stats or array stats above a given level, or points in point buy) into a stat just to be able to spend another limited resource (i.e. a feat) on something that fits my character concept.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Gnomes are still not earth elementals.  This needs changing, now if not sooner.
Gnomes are still not earth elementals.  This needs changing, now if not sooner.


They are what ever you want them to be and have always been that way.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Earth elementals were/have been indeed called gnomes... 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemental

 not sure what makes the it a big deal...
 

 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Something being "familiar" doesn't mean it's "boring" or "simple." Your taking it to mean that just means you're unimaginative.


dont particularly see real people as boring or simple so I also dont find it realistic  let alone fun.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

My biggest problem with gnomes is they're not even in the right section. They should be under Improvised Bludgeoning Weapons.

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.

My biggest problem with gnomes is they're not even in the right section. They should be under Improvised Bludgeoning Weapons.


Does that mean dwarves should have the range weapon option?

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

NO ONE TOSSES A DWARF!
Dont tell the elf.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

My biggest problem with the Human is point buy or quirky rolls that come up almost all odd. You can easily manipulate things to get (almost) all even scores, and since the Ability Score Boost can give you +2 to a single score, you really don't want any Odd Scores after creation if you can help it. Would be good if they had requirements on odd scores (like 4E did with feats) or if you could only boost +1 to 2 scores.


Ugh.  God no.  Attribute requirements need to die.  They're nothing but a concept tax.


I agree, but I also feel like there needs to be a reason for odd scores to matter. If not feats, there should be some type of rules which play off of odd-score.


Depending on what it is and how it's implemented, I could get on board with that.  I just don't want to have to pump a limited resource (i.e. rolled stats or array stats above a given level, or points in point buy) into a stat just to be able to spend another limited resource (i.e. a feat) on something that fits my character concept.


Yea, please note I didn't say Feat Requirements, I just said some requirements. Sometimes requirements make sense and should be used (I will use the best example I can think of: the Linguistic Feat in 4E required 13 Int because less intelligent people generally aren't fluent in 4+ Languages). The way they're doing feats, a built in Ability Score requirement just isn't going to work. I was thinking along the lines of maybe Armors (I did this on my reworked Armor section, because the current armors are a terrible concept), weapons (like Str minimums for compound bows), or something. Really, I think it would be best to return to +1 to 2 Abilities, rather than allowing a single +2.