110 pounds for Plate Armor??! That's *insane!!*

Who in the heck thought that was a good idea?

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

Who in the heck thought that was a good idea?




even real world armor was half that...45-55 pounds during medeival times
  

www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.h...
if you take the feat heavy armor weights 0 so there is a reason i assume.
Those are nautical pounds, obviously. The conversion ratio is like 3:1.

The metagame is not the game.

Who in the heck thought that was a good idea?

Someone who thiks D&D should be a simulation of reality, with magic added to it.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Who in the heck thought that was a good idea?

Someone who thiks D&D should be a simulation of reality, with magic added to it.




reality is plate armor only weights 45-55 pounds.  It NEVER has weighed 110 pounds, unless you refer to some forms of tournament armor...and nobody is idiotic enough to wear tourney armor to walk through a dungeon





       

Who in the heck thought that was a good idea?

Someone who thiks D&D should be a simulation of reality, with magic added to it.




reality is plate armor only weights 45-55 pounds.  It NEVER has weighed 110 pounds, unless you refer to some forms of tournament armor...and nobody is idiotic enough to wear tourney armor to walk through a dungeon

Okay, I redact that statement.  Maybe it was someone who thinks fighters can't have nice things?

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Who in the heck thought that was a good idea?



Probably the same person who thought a quarterstaff should do more damage than a spear.
Well, when the STR Carry/Encumbrance ratings are still borked and halflings still have Spider Strength, well, the heck with physics.  It can weigh 500, if your toon can carry 2k and still fight without penalty much less a sweat. 

Just sayin', its the wrong comp for an unfixed problem.
Who in the heck thought that was a good idea?

Someone who thiks D&D should be a simulation of reality, with magic added to it.




reality is plate armor only weights 45-55 pounds.  It NEVER has weighed 110 pounds, unless you refer to some forms of tournament armor...and nobody is idiotic enough to wear tourney armor to walk through a dungeon

Okay, I redact that statement.  Maybe it was someone who thinks fighters can't have nice things?



Add to that a real world chain hauberk might also weight 45 lbs and doesnt hang as well on your body.... and is hotter (less air flow). Chain was easier to make and cheaper... but ummm.

Not sure wear the number came from.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

1e had a better idea of making gear weight in coins instead of pounds.  This took into accoiunt bulk as well as weight.  So 50' of hemp rope 'weighed' a ton only because it was so bulky it didn'tlave much room for anything else.  Standard rations were similar - all that fruit and beg take up a lot of space.  From that perspective I can see an argument for saying that plate armour limits movement sufficiently that it makes it harder to carry a lot of gear but it's a stretch.
Yeah 110 lb armor is silly.

I would love to see some form of  Matt Rundle's anit-hammerspace item tracker found here.
 rottenpulp.blogspot.com/2012/06/matt-run...

It is an easy simple way to keep track of encumbrance.

 

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

This is fantasy platemail. Obviously it's a bit more weighty than real life because it needs to be built with the stability to block magical attacks in mind, whereas it was probably not an issue in real life.

You are going to be thanking the gods for that extra 50 pounds of armor in between you and that dragon's firebreath.

And probably cursing them a few turns later when you are trying to run away. But heh you chose to be a fighter, you stupid jock. 

Stop the H4TE

110 lb seems a bit much. I'd prefer if they lower it and revise equipment weights, and Carrying Capacity to STR x5.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour

I've decided that MotC should hire me as their fact checker.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, “Are you really sure?”

Oddly, they actually did reduce the weights of many weapons (and waterskins!) to make them more reasonable.

The only plausible reason I can see for increasing plate armor so much is to limit it to high Str characters, but it doesn't even do that. For just 20% more gold, you can get mithral plate and avoid the whole problem.

I hope they put it back to something more realistic.
Actually I think it's pretty bang on.

Look people have been drawing gigantic shoulder plates and stupendis amounts of layered steel instead of the historically accurate well designed deflective stuff.

And so WotC hve brought the weight up to match the picture.

Solution is to start drawing/describing the well proportioned thing and maybe the weight will come back down to earth.
Actually I think it's pretty bang on.

Look people have been drawing gigantic shoulder plates and stupendis amounts of layered steel instead of the historically accurate well designed deflective stuff.

And so WotC hve brought the weight up to match the picture.

Solution is to start drawing/describing the well proportioned thing and maybe the weight will come back down to earth.



qft

AD&D is powergaming – powergaming for the DM. And back then, DM stood for "Dire Munchkin."

 

I suppose people are entitled to their uninformed opinions; I just don’t see the point when that opinion won’t be respected. Proper research can be the difference in appearing a fool vs. a respectable dissident. 

 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/3.jpg)

  But heh you chose to be a fighter, you stupid jock. 


 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

This is fantasy platemail. Obviously it's a bit more weighty than real life because it needs to be built with the stability to block magical attacks in mind, whereas it was probably not an issue in real life.

You are going to be thanking the gods for that extra 50 pounds of armor in between you and that dragon's firebreath.

And probably cursing them a few turns later when you are trying to run away. But heh you chose to be a fighter, you stupid jock. 



Not to mention that if it was real platemail, the metal would just help you cook more evenly rather than letting the dragon fire char you completely on one side. 
Not to mention that if it was real platemail, the metal would just help you cook more evenly rather than letting the dragon fire char you completely on one side. 


That depends on whether or not it's full plate or plate mail. Full plate would have several layers of padding and chain which would probably protect pretty well from the heat. At least for a little while.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, “Are you really sure?”

OK, why exactly are we saying that plate mail protects people from dragon's breath and magical attacks?
OK, why exactly are we saying that plate mail protects people from dragon's breath and magical attacks?


BECAUSE!

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, “Are you really sure?”

I think the moral of the story here is that they really really need to revise and release an updated equipment doc ASAP. While I like the differentiators the put in for the weapons that now give a real choice, many of the other changes are ridiculous. 110 lbs armor is ridiculous. 1d10 damage quarterstaves are ridiculous. No bludgeoning finesse weapons is lame. Blowgun is special but we don't know why, there's no description for it. Crossbow and Bow damage are all over the place - how does a hand crossbow out power a light crossbow with greater range?!

It's insane, but necessary to prevent people taking a Str of 8, then maxing Dex, suiting up in plate, and going sword and board with a rapier just as effectively as with a Str weapon, and having the superior benefits of high Dex rather than high Str.
It's insane, but necessary to prevent people taking a Str of 8, then maxing Dex, suiting up in plate, and going sword and board with a rapier just as effectively as with a Str weapon, and having the superior benefits of high Dex rather than high Str.



I don't agree. You get no dex bonus (or penalty) for using heavy armors. And even with a more reasonable weight of 50 or 55, it's impossible to have a strength of 8 and carry your armor, weapons, and the equipment you need to adventure effectively, let alone have room to carry loot. There's already enough there for a DM to make sure that a lame rule "hack" like that is impossible or at least very unpleasant to play. You need to wear no armor or light armor to get the full AC bonus from any DEX higher than 15.
This is fantasy platemail. Obviously it's a bit more weighty than real life because it needs to be built with the stability to block magical attacks in mind, whereas it was probably not an issue in real life.

You are going to be thanking the gods for that extra 50 pounds of armor in between you and that dragon's firebreath.

And probably cursing them a few turns later when you are trying to run away. But heh you chose to be a fighter, you stupid jock. 



armor only boosts AC though... a dragon's breath is reflex save

Heya everyone, here are my homebrew threads: (yes there is only one right now, but there are more to come!) And Let There Be Fish-Men: KUO-TOA
I guess nobody has ever heard of a typo.  It's pretty absurd to think that WoTC deliberately put plate at 110 pounds.
I guess nobody has ever heard of a typo.  It's pretty absurd to think that WoTC deliberately put plate at 110 pounds.



You never know.
@CountZyx

They don't need a Dex bonus to AC, since plate gives them an equal AC to max Dex. But Dex still applies to a lot more saves than Str, applies to initiative, applies to the best ranged weapons, and is used at least as often in ability checks. That being said, I would prefer it be done a different way and armor dropped to reasonable weights.

The real problem is that there needs to be something discouraging using a finesse weapon while wearing heavy armor and a shield. As it is now, even with the Fencing Master feat, there is no real reason for anyone not to use a shield with their rapier. The finesse property ought not to work with heavy armor or shields.
It's insane, but necessary to prevent people taking a Str of 8, then maxing Dex, suiting up in plate, and going sword and board with a rapier just as effectively as with a Str weapon, and having the superior benefits of high Dex rather than high Str.


No, it doesn't prevent that. They can just save up an extra thousand gp and use mithral plate instead.

At any rate, if you don't think the finesse rules are balanced (and I agree they aren't), then I think it makes a lot more sense to argue for fixing the finesse rules rather than to mess with the armor and other rules to compensate.
Good point. I'll change my statement to that I think balancing finesse may have been what they were attempting.

I think eliminating the ability to finesse with shields and heavy armor should get the job done without adverse side effects, since I don't anticipate many people actually visualizing a characterwho fights that way. It's just min-maxing the system to combine such cheese.

As far as variance amongst weights, they need to keep them more or less as they are for proper balance purposes. Each category has one "junk armor" for equipping NPC soldiers that has nothing going for it except price and maybe weight. Then it has the superior mithril. The armor in-between need to be viable options so there is a reason to choose any one of them. That is something they finally got *right* after a few packets.
Note that I said variance. Actual weights (like plate) ought to come down in some cases.
I'm always amused at how topics like this bring the mideval realism nuts out of the closet.

I want fun mechanics in a game. I care not a whit about realism.
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
No bludgeoning finesse weapons is lame. Blowgun is special but we don't know why, there's no description for it. Crossbow and Bow damage are all over the place - how does a hand crossbow out power a light crossbow with greater range?!



Bludgeoning, by definition, is not a finesse attack. A baseball bat is simply not a finesse weapon.

Blowgun--do you really need to know what a blowgun is? They are special because they are a breath weapon, I suppose. And you typically would poison the darts.

Crossbows are a direct-fire weapon. They can punch through plate armor and don't need much strength or training to use. However, the bolts are heavy and not typically fletched, so they lose accuracy at range. Arrows can be aimed at a 45 degree angle and fly a great distance. 
wait, people actually bother calculating carry weight?

Bludgeoning, by definition, is not a finesse attack. A baseball bat is simply not a finesse weapon.


That's silly. Bludgeoning damage in dnd is just damage by a blunt instrument as opposed to an edged or pointed one. Finesse in dnd describes a weapon use based on speed and accuracy more than strength. There's no reason to think they are contradictory. The singlestick is a really obvious counterexample, as are many unarmed fighting techniques.

The singlestick is a really obvious counterexample

As is a thrown rock.

Looking at the armor table, Plate is so obviously out of whack with everything else I'm convinced it's a typo. 

Which is funny, because WotC will fix it next packet, but everybody will smugly conclude that their screaming and crying on the forums is what persuaded those amateurs of the error of their ways.

When really it's just a typo.
 
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
While we're at it, if we insist on using armour weight based on anime style illustrations, great swords should weigh about 100 lbs too and female-tailored chain mail about 5 lbs.
And if we get that I want Gunswords and Catgirls!  Heavy gunswords and skinny catgirls since we are talking about how much things weight.  

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

Sign In to post comments