Inspiration

While I won't use it, I think that it's existance is hardly an issue.   It is by default optional as the DM can just never give out any inspiration.   I don't feel like I can't play the game without it as they've stated there are no math assumptions about it.   In fact I'd call something like this the ideal optional rule.

Why don't I like it?  It's DM metagaming.  I realize that handing out xp is a form of DM metagaming too don't get me wrong.  At least with xp, it happens off camera.   The player knows about xp and the character does not.   The character is studying and practicing to gain levels.   The xp never actually enters the game.   It's not perfect.

With inspiration though, it's different.   The DM is actually changing the outcome of the game based upon his decisions about roleplaying.   Again I don't mind it but I won't use it.

If they want to use something "modern" in the rules, I'd much prefer the advantage/threat secondary result on skill checks especially social skill checks.

 

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IMO: Advantage gives too much of a reward and thus "punishes" those who don't RP to the DM's liking.  It also puts alot of pressure on the DM as to when/if to reward it.


Reduce it to +1d4, or even just +1, and we're better off.  It's much less of a deal weather you get it or not.  Still a nice little reward, and encurages RP, but doesn't force it.

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I don't like DM metagaming either. I prefer to give out XP for good roleplaying rather than let it alter probability. I'll probably not use this inspiration system, as I've never been a fan of similar ideas in 4th edition and Pathfinder. At least this one isn't "point" based, so you can't get a bonus to hit that dragon because three weeks ago you got a great deal on torches thanks to your background as a traveling salesman.
I think we're mostly aligned on this: Inspiration isn't really among the tools I'm looking for, but it's an easy molehill to ignore. I have nothing against metacurrency, but I prefer when the system is built with its impact in mind. At the moment, Inspiration sounds only tangential to the rest of the system.
I don't see it quite so much as meta currency I can really see this as a character who is true to himself is always hitting his stride. Its lime a mechanic for confidence which is neat.
As a DM when a player makes a great pitch to try and talk their way through something and than rolls a 1 and it devolves into combat I always feel like I should have not asked for the roll in the first place.  By giving advantage this outcome is less likely.
As a DM when a player makes a great pitch to try and talk their way through something and than rolls a 1 and it devolves into combat I always feel like I should have not asked for the roll in the first place.  By giving advantage this outcome is less likely.



I totally agree with this approach.  Inspiration though has you give a great speech earning credit which you then use to attack better at a later time.   The DM should always factor things into his adjudication of any situation.

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As a DM when a player makes a great pitch to try and talk their way through something and than rolls a 1 and it devolves into combat I always feel like I should have not asked for the roll in the first place.  By giving advantage this outcome is less likely.



Instead, you, as the DM, could just redefine the qualities of success and failure for that situation. The dice roll after a creative plan or great roleplaying could just mean the difference between a narrow success and an overwhelming success. I think you and the players might enjoy that more than just safer dice.
Only if the combat were a direct extension of the speech and hence being the same scene. You could not gain inspiration from a great speech and the use it for advantage jn a brawl later that night.
As a DM when a player makes a great pitch to try and talk their way through something and than rolls a 1 and it devolves into combat I always feel like I should have not asked for the roll in the first place.  By giving advantage this outcome is less likely.

You could also just grant a bonus to the check such that even a 1 would result in success. It's not like a 1 on a skill check has ever been an automatic failure, right?

The metagame is not the game.

As a DM when a player makes a great pitch to try and talk their way through something and than rolls a 1 and it devolves into combat I always feel like I should have not asked for the roll in the first place.  By giving advantage this outcome is less likely.

You could also just grant a bonus to the check such that even a 1 would result in success. It's not like a 1 on a skill check has ever been an automatic failure, right?


We tend to look at 1s as a critical failure - but that might be a quirk of our group - rolling 20s always good... rolling 1s always bad- I am not saying that our way is the right way, but it is traditon.
We tend to look at 1s as a critical failure - but that might be a quirk of our group - rolling 20s always good... rolling 1s always bad- I am not saying that our way is the right way, but it is traditon.

Most groups that I've seen include similar house rules, and this is often the result. There's a reason why they never put it in a core rule book, though.

When house rules lead to bad situations, such as a great speech being foiled by a bad roll, it may be time to re-evaluate your house rules.

The metagame is not the game.

or not bother rooling the dice when social interaction occurs
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The system is a way to reward players, not characters. The whole concept of it being related to "inspiration" just confuses it's purpose and would have been better left out of the description.

It's a "Well done Carl,  that was awesome, you deserve a bonus! And the last slice of pizza."  not a "You are inspired, Gromgax Beefyscoop. Your next blow is more accurate."
Not sure how I feel about it but seems to come from the "Force Point" or "Destiny Point" line of thinking from the D20 & Saga Edition Star Wars RPGs.
I can say I would use it, but I wouldn't use it the way they used it in last Friday's session. 

I could see using it in conjunction with players backgrounds and traits. Like placing inspiration on swinging from a rope on a ship because I know one player has a pirate background. But, it would have to be something I put in place before hand like separate list of actions for each character in the campaign. I wouldn't share that with the players though.

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I don't see this so much as a reward for being awesome as much as it is about being in character.

I would not give the stereotypical half-orc barbarian Inspiration for given a rousing speech to the king but I wouldgive it to the noble knight for the same thing.
"
"I don't see this so much as a reward for being awesome as much as it is about being in character.

I would not give the stereotypical half-orc barbarian Inspiration for given a rousing speech to the king but I wouldgive it to the noble knight for the same thing."

From the original article (emphasis mine):


"When you have your character do something that reflects your character's personality, goals, or beliefs, the DM can reward you with inspiration. The key lies in describing your action in an interesting way, acting out your character's dialogue, or otherwise helping to bring the game to life by adding some panache to your play."

So it's not JUST about staying in character. It's doing it in a way that brings the game to life.

In your example, the stereotypical (low charisma)  half-orc, if they had a good in character reason to try,  could gain the award via the player giving an extraordinarily BAD speech to the king, one potentially ending in "Clap the insolent dogs in irons!".
"
"I don't see this so much as a reward for being awesome as much as it is about being in character.

I would not give the stereotypical half-orc barbarian Inspiration for given a rousing speech to the king but I wouldgive it to the noble knight for the same thing."

From the original article (emphasis mine):


"When you have your character do something that reflects your character's personality, goals, or beliefs, the DM can reward you with inspiration. The key lies in describing your action in an interesting way, acting out your character's dialogue, or otherwise helping to bring the game to life by adding some panache to your play."

So it's not JUST about staying in character. It's doing it in a way that brings the game to life.

In your example, the stereotypical (low charisma)  half-orc, if they had a good in character reason to try,  could gain the award via the player giving an extraordinarily BAD speech to the king, one potentially ending in "Clap the insolent dogs in irons!".



Umm ... dood?  Check the text right before the stuff you bolded.  'Reflects character's personality, goals, beliefs'  In other words, if the DM don't think your rousing speech jives with your Barbarian's personality then there's no reward. 
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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

I really like the idea behind inspiration. I find it, well, inspiring...

 
Zombie_Babies

Not disagreeing with you at all. The point I was making in my previous post was that it's not JUST about 'Reflects character's personality, goals, beliefs', it's also about style and execution.
Zombie_Babies

Not disagreeing with you at all. The point I was making in my previous post was that it's not JUST about 'Reflects character's personality, goals, beliefs', it's also about style and execution.



I'd say the lines I mentioned are more important than the ones you did.  This would imply that style and execution aren't enough - and if they aren't then there's no problem.  In other words, you need both.  So if some Half Orc Barbarian makes a rousing speech about the need to save all of the bunnies in the forest there wouldn't be any reward no matter how well or poorly the player did making it ... unless, of course, this Half Orc Barbarian was all about bunnies from the get go.
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Zombie Babies

Why don't we meet in the middle and say both components are equally important?

Again, I don't disagree with you at all. Please go back and read the post from slyck314 that I was actually responding to you. Their post made no mention of the style and execution part of the equation, and I felt that needed to be mentioned.

"So if some Half Orc Barbarian makes a rousing speech about the need to save all of the bunnies in the forest there wouldn't be any reward no matter how well or poorly the player did making it ... unless, of course, this Half Orc Barbarian was all about bunnies from the get go."

Now, this brings up an interesting point. Should beliefs and goals evolve as the character does? Could that rousing speech be the epiphany moment when the Half Orc barbarian BECOMES all about bunnies. And if so, can you reward it then and there?

Sort of a silly example, but an intriguing underlying question.

The system is a way to reward players, not characters. The whole concept of it being related to "inspiration" just confuses it's purpose and would have been better left out of the description.

It's a "Well done Carl,  that was awesome, you deserve a bonus! And the last slice of pizza."  not a "You are inspired, Gromgax Beefyscoop. Your next blow is more accurate."

That is exactly what this is.
Your charachter behaved in such a way as to align his motivations, with his actions, thus causing them to work "in the flow", and perform better than they normally would for a short period of time.  It's a real phenomon in life, and there is no reason charachter should lack it. 
If that's the lampshade you want to hang on it, sure. It's as good an "in game" justification as any. "The gods favour those with conviction" would serve just as well.

That doesn't really change the fact that the mechanism exists to reward the player, not the character, does it though.
or not bother rooling the dice when social interaction occurs


Because it makes so much sense to add a character stat that impacts the interaction, skills that might impact the interaction, and social interaction vertical (pillar) mechanics to the game and then complete ignore them to base the result on the players' abilities to role play?

Do you also make your players lift weights to determine if they can force open doors?  ;)

Good roleplay is great and all, but that's what the player can do, not the character, and the game mechanics for the character should definitely be a consideration.

Zombie Babies

Why don't we meet in the middle and say both components are equally important?

Again, I don't disagree with you at all. Please go back and read the post from slyck314 that I was actually responding to you. Their post made no mention of the style and execution part of the equation, and I felt that needed to be mentioned.




Not the impression I got from what you wrote but fair enough.

Now, this brings up an interesting point. Should beliefs and goals evolve as the character does. Could that rousing speech be the epiphany moment when the Half Or barbarian BECOMES all about bunnies. And if so, can you reward it then and there?

Sort of a silly example, but an intriguing underlying question.


It is an interesting question and the only answer I can come up with is that the player and DM make a decision together about it.  Basically I don't think this can be added to any ruleset cuz who really knows.  Still, I think it's worth mentioning and discussing.
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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

If that's the lampshade you want to hang on it, sure. It's as good an "in game" justification as any. "The gods favour those with conviction" would serve just as well.

That doesn't really change the fact that the mechanism exists to reward the player, not the character, does it though.

The mechanic does not reward the player, and it isn't there to reward the player.  The Mechanic exists to reward the table, and to reward the game.  The benefit to the player is rather pathetic except it's just enough to cause a change in behavior at the table it make it more of a  D&D experience.

The mechanic has nothing to do with rousing speaches, or using accents, or asking the bartender for his best ale.

All that is required to activate the mechanic is, for example, for the player to say, "Hmm, well, I guess it would be best to take the gold off the bodies, however my monk has sworn an oath of poverty and piety, and instead we should use the gold to pay for a proper burial of the fallen."   At which point the DM says, ok, great, you do so, and you gain an inspiration point. 
As a player I think I'd prefer to be rewarded with XP over inspiration.   If I spend time developing my character profile/backstory (I write a biography or something like that), then I'd want something that's more permanant in return for that effort.   

On the other hand if the reward is very small (around 50 xp), I'd rather have an inspiration point.    


I'm not excited by the random tables.  I might use them for NPCs I need to flesh out, but I'd much rather the players come up with that stuff for their characters.  That being said, I'm glad they're there for people who want them.

With regard to the inspiration mechanic:  I support encouraging good roleplaying, and I'm glad they're tying it to something other than xp (so one consistenctly good roleplayer doesn't end up always being 1 or 2 levels ahead of everyone else).  However, I'm not thrilled by the inspiration mechanic.  Advantage is nice, and the ability to add advantage to negate a disadvantage is nice too.  But, it feels too "meh" to me.

I'll probably end up houseruling inspiration into a kind of RP account that you can save these points in and redeem for things like lower-cost supplies, better in-game favors (for example, if a noble is willing to send 3 soldiers to helo you with your task, maybe you could spedn these points to get more soldiers to help), and maybe even negating a bad death save.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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From the article (emphasis mine):

"When you have your character do something that reflects your character's personality, goals, or beliefs, the DM can reward you with inspiration. The key lies in describing your action in an interesting way, acting out your character's dialogue, or otherwise helping to bring the game to life by adding some panache to your play."

"All that is required to activate the mechanic is, for example, for the player to say, "Hmm, well, I guess it would be best to take the gold off the bodies, however my monk has sworn an oath of poverty and piety, and instead we should use the gold to pay for a proper burial of the fallen."

Your example lacks the "panache" descibed in the original article.

Style and execution of the player count for as much as beliefs and goals of the character. A dry "my character should do this thing, so I do that" is adequate roleplaying, not reward worthy.

That's why I continue to hold, it's the player you are rewarding with this mechanism, not the character, because it's the player putting some effort into it. (And that's a good thing.)

Style and execution of the player count for as much as beliefs and goals of the character. A dry "my character should do this thing, so I do that" is adequate roleplaying, not reward worthy.


It depends on what facet of roleplaying you're trying to encourage.  If you're trying to encourage people to play in character, then requiring a flashy description may be setting the bar too high.  On the other hand, if you're trying to encourage flashy rp, then giving out the reward for simply acting in character is setting the bar too low.  It's a matter of what you're trying to encourage and the skill level of the players.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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That sounds dangerously like you are counselling us to wait until we get all the information and actually see the rule before we start warring over it. That's so disgustingly civilized and un-forumy!

I'm going to have to ask you to turn in your Internet Card.
MechaPilot

That sounds dangerously like you are counselling us to wait until we get all the information and actually see the rule before we start warring over it. That's so disgustingly civilized and un-forumy!

I'm going to have to ask you to turn in your Internet Card.


Oh no, I'd never do something that rational.

Seriously though, that wasn't what I intended to say.  If it came out that way, then (in retrospect) I'm glad.  I just meant that "good roleplaying" can mean different things depending on whether you are dealing with new players (who may, or may not, need encouragement to act in character even when it's against their best interest), or players who are in character but not adding to the excitement of the game through their roleplaying.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

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Inspiration is a lot like bennies from savage worlds, it is a good device for the DM to reward people besides magic items and xp.  

I like my game, and that characters that play in it balanced so I stick with wealth by level guidelines in Pathfinder/3.X and use player wish lists and treasure parcels when I run 4e, so I dislike using spur of the moment magic items to reward players.

I dislike having any player being of a different xp total or level then any other one, so I just tell my players when they level and haven't used xp except for encounter building in a very long time.

Action Points, Inspiration, Bennies, whatever they are called are a very fun way to reward characters with a nice depletable resource.  In my Savage Worlds games I love using physical tokens to represent them and so do the players, as far as rewarding them goes the dynmacis at the table tell you most of the time.  When a player is discribing something and has the whole groups undivided attention, when people's jaws drop because someone did some amazing stunt, ect...

But yeah they are little treats the DM can use to train his players like Pavlov and his dogs, nothing wrong with that. 

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

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The system is a way to reward players, not characters. The whole concept of it being related to "inspiration" just confuses it's purpose and would have been better left out of the description.

It's a "Well done Carl,  that was awesome, you deserve a bonus! And the last slice of pizza."  not a "You are inspired, Gromgax Beefyscoop. Your next blow is more accurate."

That is exactly what this is.
Your charachter behaved in such a way as to align his motivations, with his actions, thus causing them to work "in the flow", and perform better than they normally would for a short period of time.  It's a real phenomon in life, and there is no reason charachter should lack it. 



Disagree.  It's an arbitrary and inherently biased judgement of the Player.  It doesn't,  and can't,  have any guidelines the Player and DM can rely upon for an unbiased judgement to determine if the event was sufficient, as it's basically "Did the DM like the Player's statement?".

It's not only metagaming,  it's also a flashpoint where there'll be fights because the Player thinks he should've received a bonus and the DM didn't. 
From the article (emphasis mine):

"When you have your character do something that reflects your character's personality, goals, or beliefs, the DM can reward you with inspiration. The key lies in describing your action in an interesting way, acting out your character's dialogue, or otherwise helping to bring the game to life by adding some panache to your play."

"All that is required to activate the mechanic is, for example, for the player to say, "Hmm, well, I guess it would be best to take the gold off the bodies, however my monk has sworn an oath of poverty and piety, and instead we should use the gold to pay for a proper burial of the fallen."

Your example lacks the "panache" descibed in the original article.

Style and execution of the player count for as much as beliefs and goals of the character. A dry "my character should do this thing, so I do that" is adequate roleplaying, not reward worthy.

That's why I continue to hold, it's the player you are rewarding with this mechanism, not the character, because it's the player putting some effort into it. (And that's a good thing.)


Emphasising the second sentence and ignoring the first sentence is just bad rules lawyering.
The second sentence gives guidance on "personality", it doesn't apply to either goals, or beliefs.  It's one of three options. 
The system is a way to reward players, not characters. The whole concept of it being related to "inspiration" just confuses it's purpose and would have been better left out of the description.

It's a "Well done Carl,  that was awesome, you deserve a bonus! And the last slice of pizza."  not a "You are inspired, Gromgax Beefyscoop. Your next blow is more accurate."

That is exactly what this is.
Your charachter behaved in such a way as to align his motivations, with his actions, thus causing them to work "in the flow", and perform better than they normally would for a short period of time.  It's a real phenomon in life, and there is no reason charachter should lack it. 



Disagree.  It's an arbitrary and inherently biased judgement of the Player.  It doesn't,  and can't,  have any guidelines the Player and DM can rely upon for an unbiased judgement to determine if the event was sufficient, as it's basically "Did the DM like the Player's statement?".

It's not only metagaming,  it's also a flashpoint where there'll be fights because the Player thinks he should've received a bonus and the DM didn't. 

At no time should the player expect to get inspiriation points. It's entirely up to the DM and the psuedo rules are clear on that.
This goes back to the discussion on roleplaying.   Do you roll and then act out the result or do you act out your character and then roll after?   I've always been the latter sort of guy.  Based on what is said I'll adjust the DC.  I don't give much credit for eloquence as I consider that part of their charisma / diplomacy score.   But what they say and to who does matter.

 

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I prefer to declare my intentions, decide the skill need, roll dice and then role play. I think by declaring your characters intentions instead of the skill it lets you have a more natural result. If someone decides they want to sneak into a building sometimes it might be sticking to the shadows others its walking in nonchalant. Declaring intentions lets the DM better judge what type of skill should work and makes the character commit to their intended action. Its a personal preference that the dice roll prior to any description of the action so nothing needs to be redacted.

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Another issue is that advantage doesn't stack.

I mean, if i play a barbarian, and i rage and jump out from behind a baricade to attack my enemies head long, instead of playing smart.  The DM can award me insperation.

But since i already have advantage with my rage...  i can't use it.




It needs to be..

1: Small  (say.. +1, 2, or +1d4)
2: Stackable.  (not advantage).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

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