Skullbriar and -1/-1 Counters

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Hey all

Lets say my opponent has a Skullbriar, the Walking Grave with 5 +1/+1 counters on it, making it a 6/6, and it blocks a 6/6 with Infect (or Wither). I know Skullbriar goes to the graveyard because it has 0 toughness, but does it go there with 11 counters (5 +1/+1 and 6 -1/-1) or one (-1/-1)?

EDIT: Skullbriar hurts my brain. Im not even sure the answer matters...
 
~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
One -1/-1 counter.  
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other when SBAs are checked.
DCI Level 1 Judge Please autocard: [c]Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon[/c] = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon [c=Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]Skittles[/c] = Skittles Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
One -1/-1 counter.  
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other when SBAs are checked.



I am not sure about this... well I know those counters "cancel" each other but do they have a chance to cancel each other before it is put in the graveyard?

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

One -1/-1 counter.  
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other when SBAs are checked.



I am not sure about this... well I know those counters "cancel" each other but do they have a chance to cancel each other before it is put in the graveyard?

Both things are state-based actions. They are performed at the same time: you both remove the counters and put Skullbriar on the graveyard at once.



704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. (...)


704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:


704.5f. If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.


704.5r. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.

[<o>]
Thanks guys, I was getting confused because of Persist.

~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Complicated rules thingy whoop that doesn't concisely answer the question aside, here's how it'll go in a nutshell.

Skullbriar will take the six -1/-1 tokens and be put into the grave with five +1/+1 counters and six -1/-1 counters. Immidiately after he's in the grave, the counters will cancel eachother out and Skullbriar will be in the graveyard with one -1/-1 counter on it.

This is important to note because, unlike will dice's explaination, it does not allow Kitchen Finks to Persist if it died due to -1/-1 counters. "Same time" is something that rarely happens in Magic: The Gathering.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
Complicated rules thingy whoop that doesn't concisely answer the question aside, here's how it'll go in a nutshell.

Skullbriar will take the six -1/-1 tokens and be put into the grave with five +1/+1 counters and six -1/-1 counters. Immidiately after he's in the grave, the counters will cancel eachother out and Skullbriar will be in the graveyard with one -1/-1 counter on it.

This is important to note because, unlike will dice's explaination, it does not allow Kitchen Finks to Persist if it died due to -1/-1 counters. "Same time" is something that rarely happens in Magic: The Gathering.

...Except when state-based actions are involved. They are defined to be simultaneous. So all as one event, the excess counters are removed from Skullbriar and it's put into the graveyard. There is no moment during which Skullbriar is in the graveyard and has more than one -1/-1 counter on it. Not even the moment "immediately after" Skullbriar is put in the graveyard.

EDIT: Will_Dice's explanation is completely correct. Persist doesn't look at the Finks in the graveyard. Persist looks at the Finks that was on the battlefield just before it was put into the graveyard.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Complicated rules thingy whoop that doesn't concisely answer the question aside, here's how it'll go in a nutshell.

Skullbriar will take the six -1/-1 tokens and be put into the grave with five +1/+1 counters and six -1/-1 counters. Immidiately after he's in the grave, the counters will cancel eachother out and Skullbriar will be in the graveyard with one -1/-1 counter on it.

This is important to note because, unlike will dice's explaination, it does not allow Kitchen Finks to Persist if it died due to -1/-1 counters. "Same time" is something that rarely happens in Magic: The Gathering.



will_dice's explanation doesn't allow for the Finks to come back either. It goes from "on the battlefield with some number of +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters" to "in the graveyard." The counters were technically also removed at the same time (and if they ever made a card that cares about counters being removed from a permanent as a trigger condition, such a thing would trigger), but there's no time Finks is in play without (at least) a -1/-1 counter. So it won't persist. In the same vein, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed won't allow Skullbriar to undie because it goes from in play with 5 +1/+1 counters and 6 -1/-1 counters to in the graveyard with one -1/-1 counter. It won't hit the graveyard with 11 counters; it'll only have the one. But the last time it was in play, it had at least one +1/+1 counter on it, so it won't undie.

You're right that "same time" is rare in Magic; this is one of those rare times. 

MTG Rules Advisor
 

Fair enough.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
OK, thanks. I wasn't sure because of Kinsbaile Borderguard when it has +1/+1 AND -1/-1 counters on him (you get a number of tokens equal to all, they don't cancel each other for this effect - using LKI) but I see it's a tad bit different here...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

OK, thanks. I wasn't sure because of Kinsbaile Borderguard when it has +1/+1 AND -1/-1 counters on him (you get a number of tokens equal to all, they don't cancel each other for this effect - using LKI) but I see it's a tad bit different here...



It's not different. It's the exact same. There was no point it was on the battlefield without all 5 +1/+1 counters and all 6 -1/-1 counters, for a total of 11. So you'll get 11. The action of the counters getting removed does happen at the same time, but that doesn't matter in the case of the Borderguard: Its last state in play included having 11 counters on them.

MTG Rules Advisor
 

Yeah, it sucks. Black Sun's Zenith is why I quit playing Skullbriar commander.
Yeah, it sucks. Black Sun's Zenith is why I quit playing Skullbriar commander.



Let it go to the graveyard then return it to your hand...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Yeah, it sucks. Black Sun's Zenith is why I quit playing Skullbriar commander.



Let it go to the graveyard then return it to your hand...



Well yeah, but the way the card works, it pretty much says Zombify me, not [/c]Raise Dead[/c] me.
Yeah, it sucks. Black Sun's Zenith is why I quit playing Skullbriar commander.



Let it go to the graveyard then return it to your hand...



Well yeah, but the way the card works, it pretty much says Zombify me, not [/c]Raise Dead[/c] me.


It can work OK in a deck with Horde of Notions. Or Conspiracy + Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to be on colours.

Just add some "sacrifice a creature" effects to "save" your Skullbriar from getting -1/-1 counters, he works well with Varolz, the Scar-Striped too...


What about some effects that'd put a creature on top of one's library? Like Golgari Thug ?

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

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