Volatile Rig with Lifelink

13 posts / 0 new
Last post
If Volatile Rig has lifelink and dies triggering the 4 damage to each creature and player, (lets say no other creatures on the battlefield), would I gain 4 life or 8 life?
You will gain 4 life for each creature and each player.

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

It deals 4 damage to each player, so a total of 8 damage. You would gain 8 life.
It deals 4 damage to each player, so a total of 8 damage. You would gain 8 life.


You will also lose 4 life as well. Net life change is to gain 4 life - but the gross changes matter. This could be important for some cards that care about whether or not you lost life in a turn.
bloodchief ascension under an opponents control for instance would see that life was lost (even though your life total went up) and trigger a counter being put on it.
luminarch ascension under your control would see that life was lost and prevent a counter being put on that turn.
Robvalue: Copy target bug or glitch. You may choose a new card for the copy... --- http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29193605/Promotional_Unlock_Cards_List --- Will never buy games made by Arena Net again.
It deals 4 damage to each player, so a total of 8 damage. You would gain 8 life.


You will also lose 4 life as well. Net life change is to gain 4 life - but the gross changes matter. This could be important for some cards that care about whether or not you lost life in a turn.
bloodchief ascension under an opponents control for instance would see that life was lost (even though your life total went up) and trigger a counter being put on it.
luminarch ascension under your control would see that life was lost and prevent a counter being put on that turn.


I don't believe you actually lose life as far as Bloodchief Ascension and Luminarch Ascension are concerned. You're dealt damage, but you gain that much life at the same time you would lose it, so the end result is that you don't actually lose any life. See rule 119.4.
It deals 4 damage to each player, so a total of 8 damage. You would gain 8 life.


You will also lose 4 life as well. Net life change is to gain 4 life - but the gross changes matter. This could be important for some cards that care about whether or not you lost life in a turn.
bloodchief ascension under an opponents control for instance would see that life was lost (even though your life total went up) and trigger a counter being put on it.
luminarch ascension under your control would see that life was lost and prevent a counter being put on that turn.


I don't believe you actually lose life as far as Bloodchief Ascension and Luminarch Ascension are concerned. You're dealt damage, but you gain that much life at the same time you would lose it, so the end result is that you don't actually lose any life. See rule 119.4.



119.3a Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.

The volatile rig dealt damage, life was lost.

Robvalue: Copy target bug or glitch. You may choose a new card for the copy... --- http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29193605/Promotional_Unlock_Cards_List --- Will never buy games made by Arena Net again.
I don't believe you actually lose life as far as Bloodchief Ascension and Luminarch Ascension are concerned. You're dealt damage, but you gain that much life at the same time you would lose it, so the end result is that you don't actually lose any life. See rule 119.4.

yes, they do see it because yes, you did lose life in the event

life loss or gain is tracked by the occurences in the event, not based on the discrete game states before and after the event

Casting Drain Life at yourself with X=10 while an opponent's Wound Reflection is on the field is a really bad idea.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

It deals 4 damage to each player, so a total of 8 damage. You would gain 8 life.


You will also lose 4 life as well. Net life change is to gain 4 life - but the gross changes matter. This could be important for some cards that care about whether or not you lost life in a turn.
bloodchief ascension under an opponents control for instance would see that life was lost (even though your life total went up) and trigger a counter being put on it.
luminarch ascension under your control would see that life was lost and prevent a counter being put on that turn.


I don't believe you actually lose life as far as Bloodchief Ascension and Luminarch Ascension are concerned. You're dealt damage, but you gain that much life at the same time you would lose it, so the end result is that you don't actually lose any life. See rule 119.4.



119.3a Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.

The volatile rig dealt damage, life was lost.


The Volatile Rig also has lifelink, though, which causes you to gain an equal amount of life — and 119.4b says that damage is processed into its results before the damage event actually happens. So in other words, it depends on whether the results are considered to be "lose 4 life, gain 4 life" or "lose/gain 0 life".

I'm gonna go ask a fellow judge.
That's 119.3.

119.4. Damage is processed in a three-part sequence.
119.4a First, damage is dealt, as modified by replacement and prevention effects that interact with damage. Abilities that trigger when damage is dealt trigger now and wait to be put on the stack.
119.4b Next, damage that’s been dealt is processed into its results, as modified by replacement effects that interact with those results (such as life loss or counters).
119.4c Finally, the damage event occurs.

Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes two things to happen: the player dealt damage loses that much life, and the controller of the object with lifelink gains that much life. If an object with lifelink deals damage to its controller, then the net result is that you lose 0 life — or in other words, you do not lose life, and Bloodchief Ascension does not trigger.



119.4c Finally, the damage event occurs.
Example: A player who controls Boon Reflection, an enchantment that says "If you would gain life, you gain twice that much life instead," attacks with a 3/3 creature with wither and lifelink. It's blocked by a 2/2 creature, and the defending player casts a spell that prevents the next 2 damage that would be dealt to the blocking creature. The damage event starts out as [3 damage is dealt to the 2/2 creature, 2 damage is dealt to the 3/3 creature]. The prevention effect is applied, so the damage event becomes [1 damage is dealt to the 2/2 creature, 2 damage is dealt to the 3/3 creature]. That's processed into its results, so the damage event is now [one -1/-1 counter is put on the 2/2 creature, the active player gains 1 life, 2 damage is marked on the 3/3 creature]. Boon Reflection's effect is applied, so the damage event becomes [one -1/-1 counter is put on the 2/2 creature, the active player gains 2 life, 2 damage is marked on the 3/3 creature]. Then the damage event occurs.
Example: The defending player controls a creature and Worship, an enchantment that says "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead." That player is at 2 life, and is being attacked by two unblocked 5/5 creatures. The player casts Awe Strike, which says "The next time target creature would deal damage this turn, prevent that damage. You gain life equal to the damage prevented this way," targeting one of the attackers. The damage event starts out as [10 damage is dealt to the defending player]. Awe Strike's effect is applied, so the damage event becomes [5 damage is dealt to the defending player, the defending player gains 5 life]. That's processed into its results, so the damage event is now [the defending player loses 5 life, the defending player gains 5 life]. Worship's effect sees that the damage event would not reduce the player's life total to less than 1, so Worship's effect is not applied. Then the damage event occurs.

The event doesn't become 'nothing happens' it becomes defending player loses 5 life, defending player gains 5 life. The simultaneity of the situation is irrelevant.

Consider for instance that their were a rhox faithmender on the field, the (volatile rig) event would become:

4 damage to each player (base event)
4 damage to each player (prevention effects)
each player loses 4 life, volatile rig's controller gains 8 life (processed to results)
each player loses 4 life, volatile rig's controller gains 16 life (replacement effect applies to the event) 

Robvalue: Copy target bug or glitch. You may choose a new card for the copy... --- http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29193605/Promotional_Unlock_Cards_List --- Will never buy games made by Arena Net again.
That's 119.3.

119.4. Damage is processed in a three-part sequence.
119.4a First, damage is dealt, as modified by replacement and prevention effects that interact with damage. Abilities that trigger when damage is dealt trigger now and wait to be put on the stack.
119.4b Next, damage that’s been dealt is processed into its results, as modified by replacement effects that interact with those results (such as life loss or counters).
119.4c Finally, the damage event occurs.

Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes two things to happen: the player dealt damage loses that much life, and the controller of the object with lifelink gains that much life. If an object with lifelink deals damage to its controller, then the net result is that you lose 0 life — or in other words, you do not lose life, and Bloodchief Ascension does not trigger.



119.4c Finally, the damage event occurs.
Example: A player who controls Boon Reflection, an enchantment that says "If you would gain life, you gain twice that much life instead," attacks with a 3/3 creature with wither and lifelink. It's blocked by a 2/2 creature, and the defending player casts a spell that prevents the next 2 damage that would be dealt to the blocking creature. The damage event starts out as [3 damage is dealt to the 2/2 creature, 2 damage is dealt to the 3/3 creature]. The prevention effect is applied, so the damage event becomes [1 damage is dealt to the 2/2 creature, 2 damage is dealt to the 3/3 creature]. That's processed into its results, so the damage event is now [one -1/-1 counter is put on the 2/2 creature, the active player gains 1 life, 2 damage is marked on the 3/3 creature]. Boon Reflection's effect is applied, so the damage event becomes [one -1/-1 counter is put on the 2/2 creature, the active player gains 2 life, 2 damage is marked on the 3/3 creature]. Then the damage event occurs.
Example: The defending player controls a creature and Worship, an enchantment that says "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead." That player is at 2 life, and is being attacked by two unblocked 5/5 creatures. The player casts Awe Strike, which says "The next time target creature would deal damage this turn, prevent that damage. You gain life equal to the damage prevented this way," targeting one of the attackers. The damage event starts out as [10 damage is dealt to the defending player]. Awe Strike's effect is applied, so the damage event becomes [5 damage is dealt to the defending player, the defending player gains 5 life]. That's processed into its results, so the damage event is now [the defending player loses 5 life, the defending player gains 5 life]. Worship's effect sees that the damage event would not reduce the player's life total to less than 1, so Worship's effect is not applied. Then the damage event occurs.

The event doesn't become 'nothing happens' it becomes defending player loses 5 life, defending player gains 5 life. The simultaneity of the situation is irrelevant.

Consider for instance that their were a rhox faithmender on the field, the (volatile rig) event would become:

4 damage to each player (base event)
4 damage to each player (prevention effects)
4 damage to each player, volatile rig's controller gains 8 life (processed to results)
4 damage to each player, volatile rig's controller gains 16 life (replacement effect applies to the event) 



Yeah, I saw that example. It's slightly different from this scenario, though: in that case, the life loss and the life gain are the result of two different things (the life loss is because of damage, the life gain is because of a spell's replacement effect). Here, both the life loss and the life gain are caused by the same damage, so it's more than just simultaneous.

Just be patient. I'm checking with a higher-level judge, and then we'll have a definite answer.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

[O] Ruling


We're not discussing whether Bloodchief Ascension triggers when you lose life and gain life in the same turn; we're discussing whether life was lost in the first place.

I'm leaning towards 'yes' at the moment because of the 'in addition' in the lifelink rules, but I'm still not entirely sure — which is why I'm waiting for my L2 judge acquintance to respond.

Edit: Clicked the wrong link. Still, the problem isn't as straight-forward as the one in that thread. I get the interaction of an unblocked attacker and a blocking creature with lifelink, but those are merely simultaneous. What we're dealing with here is life gain and life loss from the same damage — not just simultaneous damage. Trust me, I've searched for an answer myself, but the rulings I've found merely deal with simultaneity.
[O] Ruling


We're not discussing whether Bloodchief Ascension triggers when you lose life and gain life in the same turn; we're discussing whether life was lost in the first place

I realize that, I mistakenly grabbed the wrong Ruling

check the linked post now



Yeah, didn't see the edit in time.

...I think we're gonna have to delete our posts after this. This back-and-forth is just going to cause confusion for future readers.

EDIT: According to my L2 acquintance, damage isn't processed into net results during 119.4b. A source with lifelink that deals damage to its controller results in both life gain and life loss.