Hex blade re-tool tell me what you think

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Your formatting could be tidier, and I'd suggest just going with the standard advancement for good saves on both Fortitude and Willpower (or is that just an error?).  I'd likewise go with the suggestions we've seen before about giving them better armour snd shield proficiencies (and the ability to cast in those), since they're a warrior-caster, and having decent armour isn't really such a big deal.

It looks like you're borrowing the hex bits from the Pathfinder witch, which makes sense given the basic idea of cursing involved, though I'd want to redevelop that properly and combine it with the hexblade's existing curse (the witch's hex doesn't exist alongside another cursing ability).  Doom strike works nicely as a built-in buff that combines with the curse.

Aura of unluck seems like it doubles up on the effect of the misfortune jinx (and using the name of the normal aura that you've renamed to something else is a bit confusing), and I'd probably do something with the hexed strike other than having it as a full-round action, since that limits the hexblade's tactical mobility.  You could possibly allow the hexed strike to be activated as a swift action, or allow it to be used on any attack, but not usable more than once a round, and not in the same turn as a normal hexblade's curse.

I would like to see some way to ditch the "safe-for-24-hours" part of the hexblade's curse, if only by making it a much shorter cooldown (1d4 rounds perhaps?).  Using a swift action already prevents it being spammed multiple times in a single round.

Dark companion is a good alternative class feature, though you're actually losing some build flexibility by making it the default option, and you aren't gaining anything since it was already available as an ACF.

Evaluating differences in the spell list (if any) would be easier if you marked your modifications somehow; I'm skipping any examination of that at the moment since I don't feel like trawling about for all the additions already made by different books, and I expect that's true for most people.
It's still a half-caster of the truly awful sort. When combined with the fact that all the other abilities are truly unimpressive, with almost irrelevant bonuses and penalties and other abilities that honestly completely irrelevant at best, with the exception of the eyebrow-raising Aura of Unluck, it winds up fixing almost nothing and will still have the exact same problems as the original one, and looks like it winds up being comparable to the Samurai in terms of power and versatility, or rather the lack thereof.

Also, seriously, work on the wording. 

The standard Hexblade straight out of Complete Warrior is already a couple of tiers above the samurai (mostly due to having some spellcasting and the dark companion alternative class feature), and this improves on that overall, even if it could do more.

I agree that the formatting could be neater.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The Samurai is vastly superior to the Hexblade(Although that's sort of a "Negative infinity plus one" deal), by virtue of actually being, you know, decent for a few levels. Unlike the as-written Hexblade it can actually do something other than be embarrassed and outperformed by fighters.

The samurai might be a better dip for specific builds, but it's a significantly worse 20-level class than the hexblade.  This is a retool for a whole class standing on its own merits.

I'm glad you mentioned the fighter, though, since it's reminded me about the hexblade's bonus feats.  A good retool should not overlook the basic utility that comes from expanding that list, since the enormous number of feats available makes them a great resource for inclusion (particularly since this isn't a naturally expanding bonus feat list; compare that to the wizard, who gains a new choice every time someone invents a new metamagic or item creation feat).
As for improving, no it really doesn't. All of its buffs are meaningless, either totally pointless or just easy to ignore. The saves on most things means that anything that's actually threatening will just laugh at you, and this is made worse by the fact that it, like other half-casters, is seriously MAD. So, no, it's not an improvement, it's just a lot of text made to look like it's an improvement.

The saves and MAD were already part of the standard hexblade (I don't count the jinx as extra saves, since that should really be part of the existing curse ability instead of having two different abilities that do the same thing).

Added to that you've got quick cast, doom strike, aura of unluck/misfortune (that naming bit is bad), and the various jinx abilities.  As all of those add versatility or power to the class, and are thematically appropriate, they're improvements, even if they could be made into better improvements.

I'd personally trim the jinxes down further (mainly to cut out the beneficial and utility options that would be better as spells).
I agree that the formatting could be neater.

And in other news, the ocean is damp.

I've seen formatting that was genuinely bad, and this is nowhere near it; the class table is mostly neat (apart from a couple of columns for spells), the names for things are bolded, it's all in the same font, and so on.

It could use some white space and better paragraph arrangements, especially given the amount of text, but it's not too bad.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
For a significant part of the game, a Samurai can shut down a large number of encounters without excessive investment. They, in other words, actually have a use and are actually good at something, even if that one thing loses its value later on.

That makes it a one-trick pony with a fairly good trick.  But it's ineffective in almost any non-combat role or against the wrong kinds of opponent when in combat.
Added to that you've got quick cast, doom strike, aura of unluck/misfortune (that naming bit is bad), and the various jinx abilities.  As all of those add versatility or power to the class, and are thematically appropriate, they're improvements, even if they could be made into better improvements.

What are they actually supposed to do? They don't add any power or versatility. They're useless, plain and simple.

I would have thought their potential would be obvious:

A casting speed booster improves both the number of spells that can be deployed in a given time (power), and the options for combining them with other actions (versatility).  A damage boost improves power.  Forcing opponents to use the worst of two rolls reduces their effectiveness (debuffs increase the user's power compared to the opponent).  The jinxes cover a variety of effects, including addition forms of attack, buffs, debuffs, and utility; all of which improve the range of things the class can do (versatility, sometimes power).

Now the exact way the effects are applied may need to be adjusted, but the basic functions do improve power and versatility.
All of the "fixes" in the thread don't solve the underlying problem: The Hexblade sucks. All of its abilities suck. It's a garbage class, flat out. This doesn't change anything. It's like giving the Truenamer a couple more utterances; Sure, it may make you feel better, but the class is still the ****ing Truenamer.

Do you have any suggestions for how it could be made better, or are you saying that this is already the best possible retool of the hexblade?

Obviously the hexblade isn't quite up to scratch; that's why you'd want to retool it in the first place.  Abilities like spellcasting, familiars, and area debuffs aren't inherently bad; the particular forms of them that the hexblade would normally gain simply need to be retooled into a better form.

The object of retooling isn't just to say "this is bad", but to establish the mechanical reason for the badness, and to change it.
I've seen genuinely bad formatting and this thread is a good example of it.

That is true, but with three different posters, it's hard for the formatting to remain completely consistent across all posts in the thread, especially with some of the weird thing the boards do with replies (take a look at post #3 for an example of how it changes the font used for a quote, but doesn't change it back when the quote is closed).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I apologize for the formatting when I typed this up. it was all good, IDK what happened when I cliked submit though.


also im pretty much ignoring anyhting cyclone joker says  since his post are basically ' hexblade bad lolololol' and what type of critique is that?



Witht his re-tool i set out to do 1 major thing, set the Hex blade to tier 3.

with the following sub goals.

1) make the base ability (curse) of the class wotwhile which meant making it come online with new action types, which meant making it a swift action and spammable sort of.
2) increase fortitude save to good        
3) abilityt o cast spells in light armor (this combined with the fact that aura of misfortune is alwasy on now makes the hexblade very 'tanky'
4) give him a way to cast some spells a day as free quicken spells  
5) steal PF witch hexes
6)  get rid fo famialir and give them dark companion
7)  4 skill points 
8) caster level to hexlbade -3
9) add in new thematically approtiate spells from spell compnedium

numers 1-4, 7 and 8 was generally a consensus of what is needed to bump up to most likely 'tier' 3  with #9 combined wiht the previous ones was a solid 'tier'3. I went a bite byond that  

Also what do you prepose i better implement jinxes SLagger?  

    
Removed some baiting, which is against the Code of Conduct - company.wizards.com/conduct

Let's keep it calm.
1) make the base ability (curse) of the class wotwhile which meant making it come online with new action types, which meant making it a swift action and spammable sort of.
2) increase fortitude save to good        
3) abilityt o cast spells in light armor (this combined with the fact that aura of misfortune is alwasy on now makes the hexblade very 'tanky'
4) give him a way to cast some spells a day as free quicken spells  
5) steal PF witch hexes
6)  get rid fo famialir and give them dark companion
7)  4 skill points 
8) caster level to hexlbade -3
9) add in new thematically approtiate spells from spell compnedium

numers 1-4, 7 and 8 was generally a consensus of what is needed to bump up to most likely 'tier' 3  with #9 combined wiht the previous ones was a solid 'tier'3. I went a bite byond that  

Also what do you prepose i better implement jinxes SLagger?

As I've noted by bits and pieces, I'd be combining jinxes and the hexblade's curse into a single class feature, and I'd keep it focused on debuffs.  The buffing and utility benefits seem like they'll work better as spells.

On that, and on point 8, the spellcasting does need to be more robust (note that Pathfinder's witch has 9th-level spells), and at the very least that can start by taking his caster level up to full. 

I disagree with point 6; the dark companion ACF is there for anyone who wants it, but there isn't any downside to leaving the familiar as the default option, as long as you bring it up to full progression.

To avoid confusion, I'd give Aura of Unluck its original name and call the new ability Aura of Misfortune.  While it's useful, I will note that Aura of Unluck (under its original name) is basically a free casting of blur in buffing terms, which doesn't add a lot when it's the only defensive improvement, hence the suggestion of heavier armour.  I do like that you've made it essentially constant, however, since it already lasted an entire battle, and it cuts down on bookkeeping.
I've seen a few decent fixes, mostly did so by getting rid of it being a half-caster, and made it an invoker or martial adept, with the curses being a cute gimmick put on a solid frame rather than being the central element of an already garbage frame.

Simply making it a better spellcaster is also an option, but you really do have to keep curses as a strong element or you're not making a hexblade (cursing people being their defining trick).

I'd favour invocations to martial maneuvers as an alternative, since they keep with the flavour of being a fighting spellcasting, while the maneuvers are more purely about fighting.
Obviously the hexblade isn't quite up to scratch; that's why you'd want to retool it in the first place.  Abilities like spellcasting, familiars, and area debuffs aren't inherently bad; the particular forms of them that the hexblade would normally gain simply need to be retooled into a better form.

No, but what the Hexblade has, that's bad. Half-casters are bad. Crappy debuffs are bad.

For the casting, giving it more than half casting is the obvious answer.  But can you go to the most important step of retooling the hexblade's curse and indicate how you think that part could be made better?

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I disagree with point 6; the dark companion ACF is there for anyone who wants it, but there isn't any downside to leaving the familiar as the default option, as long as you bring it up to full progression.

Why? It's not like anyone doesn't take Dark Companion anyways.

That's generally true, but someone might want a specific build where they use a familiar, and it involves making an extra change to limit that when you've already got both options available without making any changes.
Simply making it a better spellcaster is also an option, but you really do have to keep curses as a strong element or you're not making a hexblade (cursing people being their defining trick).

I'd favour invocations to martial maneuvers as an alternative, since they keep with the flavour of being a fighting spellcasting, while the maneuvers are more purely about fighting.

Honestly, were I a designer, the way I'd want to go about it is making a whole Sublime Way school based on cursing and the like, but that's me.

It could be done, though we could already flavour a good portion of Shadow Hand as curses.

If I were designing a new Sublime Way school, I'd personally prefer to make one with a lot of Wuxia-style flight ("fly up to X feet and hit someone" being the basic skeleton of most maneuvers), but it's a matter of personal preference.
For the casting, giving it more than half casting is the obvious answer.  But can you go to the most important step of retooling the hexblade's curse and indicate how you think that part could be made better?

Here's an example of it done well in concept, although it is not without issues.

Nice.  It does give a great example of combining extra effects into the curses without adding too much extra baggage, and the greater aura of unluck is the logical progression of the existing ability (going from the equivalent of blur to displacement).  And I had forgotten that Dead Levels II added that little plaything for the hexblade (it's obviously not part of a fix, but it's fun to have).

The part I don't like about that revision is that it butchered almost all of the hexblade's noncombat ability by removing the spellcasting and giving nothing in its place.  He's left with little more than skill checks for doing anything outside of combat.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
It could be done, though we could already flavour a good portion of Shadow Hand as curses.

But then you run into the problem of Ex teleports.

Since you need both line of sight and line of effect for those, they're really more like safe movement.
The part I don't like about that revision is that it butchered almost all of the hexblade's noncombat ability by removing the spellcasting and giving nothing in its place.  He's left with little more than skill checks for doing anything outside of combat.

>Noncombat abilities
>Hexblade
>

Also, if Prestidigitation isn't non-combat utility, I don't know what is.

There's plenty on the hexblade spell list for dealing with noncombat challenges.  The weakness there is the general weakness of the hexblade's spellcasting, rather than it being a spell list tailored towards combat uses.

I don't count the Dead Levels material as part added by that revision (it's nice that they included it, but it doesn't improve the class any more than including the dark companion ACF here does), and having a cantrip usable at-will (eventually) doesn't make up for losing everything up to 4th-level spells.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I was more questioning how you could possibly thematically tie teleportation to curses.

As I said, a good portion of Shadow Hand could be flavoured as curses.  Teleportation would be in the other portion, except if it should ever occur involuntarily at an inopportune moment.
There's plenty on the hexblade spell list for dealing with noncombat challenges.  The weakness there is the general weakness of the hexblade's spellcasting, rather than it being a spell list tailored towards combat uses.

And if a combination of creative skill layouts and penalties to enemy's opposed rolls isn't good enough, it's probably not something thematically in line with the Hexblade.

The theme already holds magic by its nature of using curses.  Some more general magic suits our witch-warrior right down to the bone.
Implying that the hexblade list as a whole is more generally useful than Prestidigitation
>

If you can't do more with spells like contact other plane and polymorph than with prestidigitation, I'm sure someone around here has said often enough how you must be doing things.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I'd probably aim for a spell progression like duskblade.  I'd also add greater bestow curse (Spell Compendium) to the spell list somewhere.  

I like the idea of increasing the potency of hexblade's curse with level, but you could take it farther.  The range could improve with level.  You could, at later levels, add in the ability to effect multiple targets with a single use.  Using the wording of "all enemies in a X-foot burst" prevents you from having to switch from targeted to area.  The ability to inflict half the penalty even on a successful save would be nice too. 
The theme already holds magic by its nature of using curses.  Some more general magic suits our witch-warrior right down to the bone.

And that would qualify under having decent skills and being prepared.

Or by having general use magic, which often works better and/or faster and which is already in the class design.
Polymorph is Polymorph, so I'm not even going to go down that road, and as for CoP, Hexblades are too MAD to make good use of it. If you want anything resembling a good answer, it'll either take all your slots every day for a couple days, or you'll be busy spending most of your time drooling and wearing a helmet.

Then again, you decided to play a hexblade, so that's probably normal.

If you want to talk down various abilities and disregard the effectiveness of spells that you'd value for other spellcasting classes (or at least the potential of them if the hexblade's basic spellcasting ability is brought up to speed), you've only got yourself to blame for thinking of the class as less than it is.

But from what you've said, you seem to think MAD is a problem for the hexblade, so you might want to mention to the OP what you'd do to improve matters.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Or by having general use magic, which often works better and/or faster and which is already in the class design.

Or not, given that it's a witch-warrior, rather than justs a witch.

That means combining magic and fighting, not excluding one.  If it were just a witch, you'd generally leave out the fighting part.
I don't think its' worse than it is. It's a garbage class that, from a combination of poor timing and general bad design, can't even effectively take advantage of two of the most broken spells in the game.

Your view is somewhat simple, and by that I mean eschewing anything complicated by completely polarizing your viewpoint into the absolutely good and the absolutely bad.

Of course the class could be worse than it is, just as it could be better, and there is an enormous spectrum of possibility for that in many different directions.  No, the class is not "garbage"; it's got some relatively good ideas that aren't realized as well as they could be and which tend to look pale compared to the overpowered Tier 1 and 2 classes, though less so when compared to the more reasonable Tier 3 options.

But there is, as I've noted before, a certain amount of bad design involved, which is the point of a retool.
But from what you've said, you seem to think MAD is a problem for the hexblade, so you might want to mention to the OP what you'd do to improve matters.

How would I improve matters? By, le gasp, making it no longer as MAD. Whuda thunk, eh?

Without a description of how you'd do it, that's as much wind as you'd normally hear from a politician on campaign.  It takes no genius to work out that fixing a problem involves fixing it.

Unless you're Chicken Little, you don't need to run around screaming about how the sky is falling and doing nothing to help.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
No, it means being a gish rather than a utility caster.

There's no rule that a gish can't also have utility casting, and if they don't, they're going to lose on versatility, since adventuring includes more than just combat.
Because, like many things, the Hexblade is absolutely bad.

Absolutely bad would be as bad as possible in every respect.  Since the hexblade could be made worse (for example, if it only had 1st-level spells, d4 hit points per level, or a medium BAB), it can't already be absolutely bad.

Polarization produces false absolutes like that because it simplifies the situation to the degree that you lose all detail and perspective.  This is anathema to a retool, since it prevents you from seeing the potential in flawed elements of the class that could be redesigned in a more positive form; you're stuck thinking of them as bad, and losing the ability to see how they could be made better.
This is more akin to, to follow the politician analogy in a more reasonable sense, a politician saying we increase funding for the endowment for the arts. How, you ask? By increasing the damned budget. Shocking concept, I know.

Yes, that's accurate, because saying "increase the budget" is an answer with no useful content.  It would completely fail to address where the extra funding would come from, how it would be allocated, or any other information that would be needed for practical implementation of a solution.  It's preferred by politicians because it allows them to make positive-sounding promises without having to dirty their hands with the real difficulties of making the promised solution work.

Once you say "MAD is a problem", it's already obvious that you need to fix the MADness of the class.  If you don't say anything about how to fix it, there's no content being added to the retool.
Unless you're Chicken Little, you don't need to run around screaming about how the sky is falling and doing nothing to help.

Unless you're that ugly shellfish from the Sinestro Corp, you don't need to run around hypocritically sniping at other posters who are being more helpful than you.

Unfortunately, you're not being very helpful; you're just kind of frowning disapprovingly at the hexblade without offering many suggestions for its improvement.  If you want to do better than me, give the OP a suggestion that he likes enough to use.

If you commonly did things like linking to good examples of other retools (which you did do, and which was good), and then gave your suggestions about how parts of that might be incorporated into this particular retool (which you've generally eschewed), then you might not see the OP saying things like "I'm pretty much ignoring CJ".

This thread is about retooling the hexblade.  It includes a request to critique the attempted retool, which certainly does not exclude general discussion of how best to perform a retooling, but it doesn't ask people to just bash the hexblade since that does not progress towards a retooled class.  If you want to mention the negatives of the hexblade and/or this particular retool, you need practical suggestions or you're simply going off-topic (which is why I'm ignoring further comparisons to the samurai, since they're not really relevant unless they reflect on improvements to the hexblade).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
There's no rule that a gish can't also have utility casting, and if they don't, they're going to lose on versatility, since adventuring includes more than just combat.

Replace "utility casting" with 9s and reread your post.

You certainly could try that, though I think it would most likely go beyond the grade we're aiming for, depending on what's on the spell list.  A suitably specialized list can provide useful levels of versatility without running out of control, even with 9th-level spells.  Obviously, it's easier to manage at more modest levels.
You're using a false definition.

I think you must have a different definition of "absolute" to the one with which I'm familiar.  It usually means that there is no limit to the subject's extent or completeness; that it goes to the uttermost extreme possible.

What do you think "absolutely bad" means, if not "as bad as possible" ("in every respect" simply being a more complete form of badness)?
You keep perspective and detail. It just doesn't matter much when you're dealing with something as astoundingly bad as the Hexblade.

Then let's establish the level of detail that you've defined; what official examples do you consider to be a worse class than the hexblade (keeping away from the NPC classes that are intentionally weaker, of course)?
Thinking in absolutes in fact improves one's ability to retool, because the game and reality both frequently work in absolutes. Thinking in absolutes also gives on a clearer view of the subject. "The Hexblade is absolutely bad" gives you more information than a CNN-style answer, because it tells you that is, in fact, bad and needs more than just a new coat of paint.

So what has thinking in absolutes told you that you need to do to retool the hexblade?
I really can't go further without someone casting "Cummon dORC."

You can describe things without using specific examples, and if you do it without being insulting to anyone, you're not going to be a valid target for a casting of that spell.
And "Mad is a problem" already contains an answer, which is to make the damned thing SAD.

So the perfect retool, by your standards, would be for the OP to simply describe the problems that need to be fixed?
"Bashing the hexblade" is entirely on topic, and claiming that's what I've done is incredibly dishonest.

You're saying that bashing  the hexblade is on-topic, but that it's not what you've done.  Are you trying to say you've been off-topic?

As you're worried about honesty, do you think it's honest to try to defend your actions while simultaneously denying that you've taken those actions?
The OP asked for a critigue, and I've given an onjective, accurate, honest, and absolutely correct critique, something you're too caught up in your own ego to do.

I gave a critique the first time I posted.  I consider mine to be accurate and honest, though I hold very high standards for the term "absolute".

Since you've mentioned ego, I assume that you're worried about seeming egotistical; you'll have fewer troubles on that front if you keep more of an open mind about the views of others.  It is a drawback of such personal attacks that they reveal the attackers insecurities through the avenues they favour.  If you don't like doing that, you can simply avoid making personal attacks, with the added bonus that you will be less likely to run afoul of the moderators.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Well before I post anything relevant I am just going to say that I accept teh unbased and pointless insults  and demaning statements that cyclone joker will proceed to make about what I am going to say.  idk how just posting 'lolol u bad lolo clas bad lololol MAD' is anywherew close to helpful and why this person has this weird need to be a huge jerk to everybody but oh well.


I made this class trying to cover most of the bases one could in D&D,    The Hexblade has damage in his attacks, battlef ield cotroll with spells like glitterdust, stinking cloud. knowdleg with contact other plane, and arcane sight. debuffs with his curse, a lot of his Jinxes, and spells, like curse of ill fortune, bestow curse and others

he cn also help allies with utility abilties such as tongues, feral speech  and weather cotnroll jinxes.

an oddly enough some minor healing in the bounty jinx.


Bascialyl what i am getting formt he ignorant arguemnt of cyclone is 2 fold 1) no full caster lolololol and 2) MAD lolololool


 my reply to him is 1) the ehxblade is a warrior first and foremost the spells are to SUPPLEMENT the class not be the main feature

2) idk i he is mad ON HOES he needs 2 stats /killsslef


basically what I am seeing is that cycloen is one of those 'tier' 1 or bust people that think unless you are playing the most powerful of classes that you are an idiot and should never play D&D. (which he has nicely enough already stated in his previous posts)            
I made this class trying to cover most of the bases one could in D&D,    The Hexblade has damage in his attacks, battlef ield cotroll with spells like glitterdust, stinking cloud. knowdleg with contact other plane, and arcane sight. debuffs with his curse, a lot of his Jinxes, and spells, like curse of ill fortune, bestow curse and others

he cn also help allies with utility abilties such as tongues, feral speech  and weather cotnroll jinxes.

an oddly enough some minor healing in the bounty jinx.

There can be a problem there with being a jack-of-all-trades.  To complete the phrase, it also often ends up making you a master of none.
1) no full caster lolololol and 2) MAD lolololool

In a certain sense, both of those are true.  At the very least, the hexblade should have a full caster level for the spells he does have (and for his familiar), and it is worth considering additional levels of spells, but more on that below.

Likewise, relying on too many ability scores is certainly a weakness, and it can be reduced somewhat without needing to become completely SAD.  It's unlikely that you can cut away the use of Charisma, and Constitution is tricky, so you would want to reduce the dependence on either Strength (by providing an alternative way to power good melee attacks and damage) or Dexterity (heavier armour is one of the ways to do that).

You should be able to at least reduce the MAD to 3 stats, or need less from two of the four you're already using.
 my reply to him is 1) the ehxblade is a warrior first and foremost the spells are to SUPPLEMENT the class not be the main feature

The starring feature should be the cursing, but the hexblade is both a warrior and a spellcaster, and it doesn't hurt to make the casting more effective than it is at the moment.

As even one of designers has noted, they didn't really understand how effective spellcasting was compared to everything else, and often overrated things like how good it was to wear heavier armour, and as one of the earlier classes, the hexblade has suffered a lot from that. 

I don't actually disagree with a fair bit of what CJ is saying about specific points (for example, the hexblade is currently too MAD), he's just too extremist and abrasive about how he presents the useful parts (i.e. the ones where he doesn't just condemn the entire class).   Heck, he's not wrong that your writing could be better, but being a jerk about it is unwarranted and unhelpful.
basically what I am seeing is that cycloen is one of those 'tier' 1 or bust people that think unless you are playing the most powerful of classes that you are an idiot and should never play D&D. (which he has nicely enough already stated in his previous posts)

He probably doesn't think he is, but it's what you might call a "Sith" problem, in that there's a tendency towards dealing in inflexible absolutes.  If something isn't good, it must be bad, and if something is good it's must be absolutely and inarguably awesome, while if something is bad, it must be completely and utterly bad.

As something of a perfectionist, I usually reject absolute statements due to seeing ways in which they're not absolute, which is why I'm so adorable.
To quote my friend the internet "Not qualified or diminished in any way." It is absolutely bad in that it is, through and through, completely and unarguably bad.

And yet, we're arguing about it.
Then let's establish the level of detail that you've defined; what official examples do you consider to be a worse class than the hexblade (keeping away from the NPC classes that are intentionally weaker, of course)?

Spelless ranger. Monk. Divine Mind. Marshal with any of their abysmal ACFs. Soulknife. Swashbuckler past 3. I dunno, I think that's about it without going into NPC classes.

Interesting, and containing most of what I'd expected, but that leaves hexblade's badness diminished, since there are classes which are worse.  It's not absolutely bad.

But the definition you've used is more properly about an absolute statement (such as "This is bad." where the note of something being bad is not diminished by a secondary statement or qualified by a means such as limiting it to a given trait), rather than an absolute article being discussed.  An example of the diminishment it describes would be "This is pretty bad." or it might be qualified as "This is as bad as we can make it."

The hexblade being "completely and unarguably bad" would be using one of the definitions of "absolute" that addresses the article of discussion being perfect or complete in nature, rather than the definition that covers making an unqualified and undiminished statement about it.
In case I have to spell it out for you, although I honestly cannot imagine how you can possibly have this poor critical reading skills, that means either reducing dependency on Cha, for the curses and whatnot, or reducing dependency on Str, such as by giving attack and damage bonuses like Swashbuckler.

Spelling out the exact kind of changes you would make is the point.  As you've said "Making it SAD" is the obvious answer to "too much MAD".

A specific solution like "giving attack and damage bonuses like Swashbuckler" isn't going to be obvious as the particular solution you'd suggest, which is why you need to actual suggest it.  You could have just as easily suggested a different solution (like making the hexblade rely less on melee attacks) that could tackle the problem from a different angle, while still producing an improved result.
You're adorable.

I try.  You get better results by being nice.
Seriously, though, if you cannot see how sanctimonious and pretentious you're being, I think you need a friend to go and read your posts. You're claiming the moral high road despite being guilty of every offense you're claiming I am. Also, you might not want to protest that loudly if you want anyone to buy it.

I'm trying to tell you how you can make more posts that don't alienate other posters.  Unfortunately, I can't do that without speaking against particular behaviours, though I try to suggest what you could do instead.  Perhaps it may come off as sanctimonious or pretentious, since that's also hard to avoid.

I do appreciate you mentioning your perception of my posts, however; I'm interested in communicating effectively with you as well.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
All right, troll less please.

Now. The Hexblade.

The Hexblade was always meant to be an "arcane" version of the Paladin. The Paladin also has its problems so maybe the two should get buffed in line with each other, but the Hexblade has some of its own problems, like the lack of armour.

As such, his spells are not particularly consequential. He's meant to be a melee dude with some stuff instead of bonus feats. He actually comes off more as a debuffer, so that's the line I'd play to. Right now something like a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny can kick out a lot of penalties to stuff quite easily (Focalor, Fearsome armour + Never Outnumbered, etc). However, a straight Hexblade, without cherry-picking a lot of stuff, does this a lot worse (Greater Curse is cool but you only get 2/day at that level, and it's not as good as a flat, no-save penalty); Hexblade past L4 is just not giving enough for its investment.

One thing I would like to see would simply be some support for it. The Curse is meant to mirror the Paladin's Smite (which also has this 1/day problem) but at least the Paladin gets Extra Smiting. The Hexblade should get Extra Curse, Midnight Curse (off Sapphire Smite), etc, and they should probably be part of his bonus feat list. Then a L5 Hexblade can be getting 5-6 curses a day with little investment, without any actual modifications of any note to the class (and I'd probably make Midnight Curse amp up the DC too, so with Dark Companion it's sure to stick). In turn that makes Hexbands a bit more attractive for alleiviating that lower Str, though I'd prefer the class to be able to stand better on its own.

If you want to pull from Pathfinder's hexes, though, I'd rather just play a straight Hexcrafter Magus to be honest.
...spelling is cool punctuation exists for a reason

Oh, really?
As a side note, I'd also suggest being a bit more creative with what you've got. Dark Companion already gives the Hexblade a +2 to AB (indirectly, by lowering AC... which also applies to his allies), and if you make his Curse more usable and more likely to stick, that equates to a +2 to AC and stacking DR 2/- (since it lowers enemy AB and weapon damage by 2). Plus it lets you use Hexbands. At the moment those are too wishy-washy, and Curse is too limited.
*sigh*
[citation needed]

Don't read so much into that. The Hexblade has pretty obvious parallels with the Paladin to a similar extent to the Ranger. If you want to believe that's sheer coincidence, fine, since it's largely irrelevant anyway.
And, after you've substantiated that claim, I'd like you to walk me through why that's a good idea.

You might like me to, but I'm not going to. In fact, I never suggested it was a good idea.
If this were true, why does he have spells at all?

Why does the Paladin have spells? Why does anyone have spells, really? The point is, we're looking at full BAB classes, not "real" casting classes. They can, like, use wands. That's about as good as it gets.
So now you're contradicting yourself.

Really? Where?
And to, once again, know why the intentions of someone as inept as the writer matters much.

Do they matter?
So there's a problem with paladins and, rather than fixing it, you'd like to shove that problem onto hexblades as well?

Read what I said, please. Then try thinking about it. Having the option of taking some feats, whether they're worth it or not, is not a problem. There may be a problem if those feats are required for the class to do well, but that's a separate issue.
What I'm actually suggesting is more that the Paladin, Hexblade and in fact Soulborn and maybe even Ranger, be buffed in line with each other, to maintain the parallels that exist between them. It's a fair opinion that those parallels don't matter, but since those other classes suffer from similar problems it makes a certain sense IMO to deal with them all at once.
Alleviating the strength penalty by adding in an excessive feat tax? That makes perfect sense...

Firstly, adding options does not add a feat tax. It may become a feat tax comparable with the level you want the Hexblade to perform at, but not comparable to the level it's currently at. Secondly, there are already several feats which alleviate ability dependancies. I don't see why this is difficult to grasp. Thirdly, I was not actually suggesting that the solution to the Hexblade's MAD should be to add more feats, simply that those options would, at least help (whether much or not). Finally, note that I said I would "prefer the Hexblade to stand on its own". That rather suggests that whilst feats, items, and dips are nice, I'm not of the opinion that they treat the cause rather than simply the symptoms.
How shall I ever forgive myself?

I'm sure you'll get over it. One day.
Seriously, though, you might have had grounds for this had you  yourself missed more punctuation in your own post.

I'm sorry, was that another typo?
All right, troll less please.

Now. The Hexblade.

The Hexblade was always meant to be an "arcane" version of the Paladin. The Paladin also has its problems so maybe the two should get buffed in line with each other, but the Hexblade has some of its own problems, like the lack of armour.

As such, his spells are not particularly consequential. He's meant to be a melee dude with some stuff instead of bonus feats. He actually comes off more as a debuffer, so that's the line I'd play to. Right now something like a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny can kick out a lot of penalties to stuff quite easily (Focalor, Fearsome armour + Never Outnumbered, etc). However, a straight Hexblade, without cherry-picking a lot of stuff, does this a lot worse (Greater Curse is cool but you only get 2/day at that level, and it's not as good as a flat, no-save penalty); Hexblade past L4 is just not giving enough for its investment.

One thing I would like to see would simply be some support for it. The Curse is meant to mirror the Paladin's Smite (which also has this 1/day problem) but at least the Paladin gets Extra Smiting. The Hexblade should get Extra Curse, Midnight Curse (off Sapphire Smite), etc, and they should probably be part of his bonus feat list. Then a L5 Hexblade can be getting 5-6 curses a day with little investment, without any actual modifications of any note to the class (and I'd probably make Midnight Curse amp up the DC too, so with Dark Companion it's sure to stick). In turn that makes Hexbands a bit more attractive for alleiviating that lower Str, though I'd prefer the class to be able to stand better on its own.

If you want to pull from Pathfinder's hexes, though, I'd rather just play a straight Hexcrafter Magus to be honest.
...spelling is cool punctuation exists for a reason

Oh, really?




I think you missed the first post of this thread where I had my re-tool of the Hex blade.   its nice that you are saying what the actual hexlbade needs, but  can you please take a look at the first pots in this thread and see how  my hexblade stacks up to what you expect from a hexblade? I am only asking this becuase you keep talking about the  level 5 hexblades gettign 5-6 curses and the 1/day problem but in my version the Hexbade can use his curse as a switc action  every round.


community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...  this is the link to the first post, im sorry that 75% of the thread is cyclone randomly going off on insult tangents and its pretty easy to have no idea there is even a first post. but please let me know what is wrong with or what is good with MY version of the hexblade.

what you desribed is how i built the class, an Arcane version of the paladin that is centered around debuffing and some fate-weaving on both allies and enemies.   WHile he might not have good 'base' DCs for spells. mostof his spells are no save and without me even trying to i can get up to a -8to -12 to saves on enemies. Im sure actual opitmizers could probably double that.

    
Since it was mentioned before and has some very nice elements, I'm going to revisit this revision, so that I can point out the useful bits, and summarize my previous suggestions (given all the off-topic material).

On the plus side, its improvements to armour and saving throws, the curse effects (in style), the inclusion of forced omens from the Dead Levels article, the greater aura of unluck, and the improved mettle are all great additions.  Take those elements, and add the quick cast, doomed strike, and hexed strike that you've got, and the improved skill points, and you'd be well on your way.  As I've noted before, despite what the Pathfinder witch does with her hexes, buffs and utilities belong on the spell list, and having simple but useful debuffing modifiers on the curse is the way to go.

The standard hexblade's caster level and familiar (if left in place) obviously need to go to full strength, and the bonus feat list is way too short, given the vast number of appropriate feats available.  The 24-hour lockout on a failed hexblade curse really needs to go in favour of some other limit, but having it as a swift action is good.

You could also give aura of unluck its name back, and make that new effect into a curse effect at an appropriate level.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Not just full strength, but it's in desparate need of not just a buff, but a Battle Blessing equivalent.

There are a few possibilities, including building some higher spell levels, faster casting speed, or a way to combine the casting action with other activities.
but having it as a swift action is good.

I'm gonna have to disagree; Instead it should actually good, rather than free but awful.

Using a free action is the default in the standard hexblade, but it's then unbounded and they constrain it with limits like the 24-hour cutoff for a successful save against it and nonstacking (but I'm not saying that it should stack).  A swift action provides a simpler standard that then interacts properly with later abilities that were made once swift and immediate actions were introduced.

Is it the effect of the curse that you consider inadequate (adding curse effects can help there), or the save DC?

From a rough look at some of the data used for the Optimization by the Numbers stuff (and assuming I'm reading it right), you want to aim for DCs on Fort/Ref/Will saves ranging from about 18/18/16 at 1st level to 40/35/36 at 20th, in order to have a 75% chance of effect (or about 13/13/11 to 35/30/31 for a roughly 50% chance).  That's a reasonable goal for which to aim; 75% is more desirable, though 50% is passable.

I think the optimization numbers were keeping in mind that you have "save-or-die" effects, so you want to aim for the more desirable possibilities if you're not firing off something that will end the problem you've targeted.  But balanced against that you've got a low action cost if you use a free or swift action, which allows the hexblade to curse someone in addition to moving in for melee combat.  The class doesn't just sit back and lob curses, after all.

The curse DC of 10 + 1/2 hexblade level + Charisma modifier does cover the 50% chance against a Will saving throw, but makes 75% more difficult to manage, especially at lower levels, and there are fewer ways to boost the save DC than with spells.  Typical class design is aimed at the passable 50% grade (they also do it with defenses like spell resistance), rather than the more desirable 75% which is why you see this particular formula cropping up a lot for ability DCs.

I'm not currently drawing a final conclusion here, but the numbers are interesting to consider.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
what you desribed is how i built the class, an Arcane version of the paladin that is centered around debuffing and some fate-weaving on both allies and enemies.
...
see how  my hexblade stacks up to what you expect from a hexblade

The Hexblade is already an arcane Paladin! What we get form the Hexblade is already what I'd expect - a Cha-dependant, full-BAB class with some shoddy spells and a 1/day signature ability which increases really slowly. The Hexblade could practically have been written as a variant of the Paladin, in fact. Trying to tack a few more things on the Hexblade kind of misses the underlying problem of that class template sucking compared with others.

The Ranger was already fixed with Mystic Wildshape Ranger


If you have to take a barely-better-than-homebrew variant to make a class perform well, that class is not good; only that variant is. Again, treating the symptom, not the cause.

Secondly, there are already several feats which alleviate ability dependancies. I don't see why this is difficult to grasp.

No there aren't, not general ones anyways.

What do you mean by "general ones"? I never said anything about what kind of feats they were or any other crap like that, but there are several which do do that sort of thing. Go read the X Stat to Y thread if you want some examples.

...someone whose grammar is consistently far superior to yours



From a rough look at some of the data used for the Optimization by the Numbers stuff (and assuming I'm reading it right), you want to aim for DCs on Fort/Ref/Will saves ranging from about 18/18/16 at 1st level to 40/35/36 at 20th, in order to have a 75% chance of effect (or about 13/13/11 to 35/30/31 for a roughly 50% chance).  That's a reasonable goal for which to aim; 75% is more desirable, though 50% is passable.

Adding in Dark Companion and potentially Aura of Despair and Focalor and it paints a very different picture. If you can't make Curse stick, you're doing it wrong, and those three plus Curse plus Intimidate make it trivially easy to flatten people's saves. The Hexblade is like a Bard in enabling other characters that way, but even just a Sudden Stunning weapon (which targets Ref) becomes a whole deal more potent in a Hexblade's hands. Only half of that at best is actually coming from the Hexblade, though; the rest is multiclassing or "feat tax".
The effects, as I've previously mentioned, are easy for anything level-appropriate to just laugh, and, because it's so MAD, you're probably looking at a 14 Cha on 32 PB at the highest, the DC is a joke.

More likely, you're looking at a healthy Cha but a paltry Str, or bad Dex and/or Con. At a higher level you might even have bought off Draconic or something. That doesn't mean it's not a problem, but lowering a reliance on Str and Dex would be just as useful.
I am only asking this becuase you keep talking about the  level 5 hexblades gettign 5-6 curses and the 1/day problem but in my version the Hexbade can use his curse as a switc action  every round.

The thing is that that's not much better than simply making the Curse per encounter instead of per day. If the target saves, they're immune for 24 hours, so that's only any good vs multiple foes, and in that case you have a delay before you can get around to Cursing everyone. Add in the swift action nerf (it's now eating all your swift actions for however many rounds) and I'm not sure it's even any better. At the moment, a Hexblade can at least use a swift action movement, a move action Intimidate, a free action Curse and a standard action attack at in one round. He's just very gear-reliant, so maybe letting him do some of those things by himself is not a bad idea, but squeezing his action economy is hardly going to help matters. Curse probably should be a swift action, but it needs to be made more worthwhile.

As a minor note, an enemy who saves should probably only be immune for, say, the encounter, or an hour. It's just an extra insult if an enemy shows up twice in one day.
It also looks as though you have actually nerfed certain things. Does "identifying the dark companion as an illusion" make it disappear or cease to affect someone? A DC 10 Arcana check is trivially easy to make (1 rank in Arcana and an average roll of 10.5...) so that's a fairly serious nerf as far as that ability's concerned. Meanwhile Mettle is pushed to levels later. It looks as though the class as you have it is fairly comparable with the Hexblade as it already is in the books. Maybe a shade better, but about as much of a shade as "high Fort saves" grants.

Also, I'm not sure what's up with your saves. You seem to have a "medium" Will save; just make it Fort and Will high. 
Adding in Dark Companion and potentially Aura of Despair and Focalor and it paints a very different picture. If you can't make Curse stick, you're doing it wrong, and those three plus Curse plus Intimidate make it trivially easy to flatten people's saves. The Hexblade is like a Bard in enabling other characters that way, but even just a Sudden Stunning weapon (which targets Ref) becomes a whole deal more potent in a Hexblade's hands. Only half of that at best is actually coming from the Hexblade, though; the rest is multiclassing or "feat tax".

I'd see that as part of the optimization potential of the class; it's worth considering to make sure it doesn't get out of hand, but the class should also tolerate some inexperience on the part of a player while remaining usable against average challenges.

Dark Companion does become more important for that when made into the default option for the class, since then you're not assuming the use of a particular option from a different source.  Intimidate is naturally relevant, being a class skill, but it pays its own tax in actions (or in resources spent to reduce actions) and invested skill points.
The effects, as I've previously mentioned, are easy for anything level-appropriate to just laugh, and, because it's so MAD, you're probably looking at a 14 Cha on 32 PB at the highest, the DC is a joke.

Being a side-effect of MAD means it's not really a problem with the curse itself, so simply making the improvements for MAD that are already desirable should help.

As for the effects, what would you suggest?  I'm talking in the sense of adding them as additional curse effects, rather than as independent jinxes.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Not necessarily. MAD can work in a well-executed class. It's just that this really isn't.

But not necessarily not, either.  Some well-executed classes can handle a certain amount of MAD, but it still tends to weaken them.

But the relevant thing we need to know here is that the DC problem with the hexblade's curse is from the hexblade's general MAD problems, not from something wrong with how the curse handles its DCs.
As for the effects, what would you suggest?  I'm talking in the sense of adding them as additional curse effects, rather than as independent jinxes.

First off, I'd make them at-will standard actions, effectively turning it into something similar to Eldritch Blast.

Now, one thing I'd do is make the effects of Bestow Curse at least an option. They should be the standard by which all others are judged. I'd also make one that gives seriously high AFC, for example, or at least a solid dispel. Negative levels at higher level might be cool, too, but meh. Also, Curse Shapes, like Chain or whatnot, would not be amiss. Basically, if you want debuffs, don't half-ass it. No garbage DCs that can will always fail, no pathetic penalties that can easily be ignored by most things above CR 3, seriously make it take an action and actually be worth the action. Make the Curse a class feature, not an afterthought.

Hmm, unless you're going for the part about inventing your own curses, I think it's more elegant to snip out the specific effects of bestow curse if we want those (though one of them is basically what the hexblade's curse already does, so we can skip that, or just up the basic effect).

Curse shapes, negative levels, and dispelling or arcane spell failure (AFC is Arcane Failure Chance?), are should be easy enough to make into curse effects, assuming a page is taken from the warlock's book.

I must admit that, for some reason, I kept thinking of the hexblade's curse as naturally being an area effect.  Maybe I'm thinking of Strike a Pose from my Chainmail Bikini Warrior PrC.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I think EscherEnigma just found a new character to LARP/cosplay...
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
No, it's not treating the symptom. It's a cure. That ranger is mechanically sound. It has options. Its casting is solid, if not great, and combined with the numerous options the ranger got in various splats, it comes out as a solidly good class.

If the Ranger is a good class on its own, it doesn't need a "fix". If it's only a good class with the Wildshape addition then it's not a good class, only the addition is. That should be built into the base class, possibly with an option to "downtrade".
I'm quite familiar with them; The issue is that all of them are still crap.

No, that's not "the" issue. I said that feats exist which reduce MAD. You seemed to take issue with that; perhaps you are once again confusing "being bad" with not existing. And don't say they "may as well not exist", because I don't give a damn.
So, in other words, you're saying that if you take an actually good class like the Binder and take dips in a bunch of bad classes, you'll wind up better than if you just went straight to twenty in the bad class? Whoda thunk? Mind=blown!

Firstly, you're as likely to be getting Focalor via feats than levels of Binder; you're not taking a Binder with dips, you're cherry-picking a single Bidner ability. Secondly, more or that character would be Hexblade than anything else, so by that rubric, it's still primarily a Hexblade. However, you largely seem to be in agreement so that's nice.
Because, you know, actually being able to do something is better, and Str actually gives you that.

So being a Fighter with no feats is a good idea?


First off, I'd make them at-will standard actions, effectively turning it into something similar to Eldritch Blast.

Now, one thing I'd do is make the effects of Bestow Curse at least an option. They should be the standard by which all others are judged. I'd also make one that gives seriously high AFC, for example, or at least a solid dispel. Negative levels at higher level might be cool, too, but meh. Also, Curse Shapes, like Chain or whatnot, would not be amiss. Basically, if you want debuffs, don't half-ass it. No garbage DCs that can will always fail, no pathetic penalties that can easily be ignored by most things above CR 3, seriously make it take an action and actually be worth the action. Make the Curse a class feature, not an afterthought.

So, make it into, essentially a Warlock?
Standard Action but powerful Curses could work. I would certainly quite like to see an AoE Curse, as that and Intimidate (plus Never Outnumbered) might work nicely against low-level minions who are more easily affected and suffer more, proportionately, from the effects (and a -6 to saves is nothing to sniff at).
I'm not sure that just giving the Warlock full BAB isn't more what you're suggesting, though...
Also, I'm curious. What scaling would you use for the Curse DCs, if you find making them stick an issue? Bestow Curse offers a save, after all.
Wrong.
...
Wrong
...
The addition is the class.

I'm going to assume you're just suffering from some sort of neuronal failure here (again) and ignore that.
No, that is untrue. It's sitting there as an option. There's no reason to change it. Unless you're in favor of compltely excising the Hexblade's Familiar in favor of forcing Dark Companion on them?

Actually, Dark Companion probably should have been built into the Hexblade, but that's by the by. I wasn't saying that I plan on "changing" the Ranger, merely that any "fix" probably should have been written into it in the first place. If I were running a game and wanted Rangers to have that, I'd just allow UA. That's fine. Not everyone is of the same mind, however.
I fail to see a functional difference.

I didn't ask you if you did. Why do you keep saying these irrelevant things? There's a difference; end of.
Oh, because full BAB is incredibly powerful, a real game breaker. That's why every single T1 and 2 class has full BAB, amirite?

I think you completely missed the point... again... I didn't say making the Hexblade a full-BAB Warlock would break the game. Just, why not make the Warlock full BAB and screw the Hexblade completely?
Also, I'm curious. What scaling would you use for the Curse DCs, if you find making them stick an issue? Bestow Curse offers a save, after all.

Probably just let the Hexblade replace Str with Cha for damage or otherwise allow it to not be ludicrously, hilariously MAD, really on the level of Monk.

That's a perfectly viable suggestion (the Hexbands actually already let you do this to a level, but alas they're contingent on your 1/day Curse and limited to 5 rounds/day, which sucks), though I'm not sure what it has to do with DCs...
Also, would you be letting AB still depend on Str? Might be better just to do something like add Cha, a la Insightful Strike. Either way you still have something of a dependance on Str (without, say, Weapon Finesse or one of those other X to Y feats which don't work) but it might make up for it.
On DC: Allow Hexblades to be SAD adn the DC is probably fine.

SAD isn't really desirable as far as design goes, just less MAD, though any real build flexibility is going to be in something other than Charisma.
What I'd probably do is allow the Hexblade to use the Cha in place of any other ability modifiers targeting people under the effect of the curse or something.

Also, would you be letting AB still depend on Str? Might be better just to do something like add Cha, a la Insightful Strike. Either way you still have something of a dependance on Str (without, say, Weapon Finesse or one of those other X to Y feats which don't work) but it might make up for it.

I've even considered giving them something equivalent to unholy toughness to cut down the normal reliance on Constitution, complementing arcane resistance.

On addition vs. a substitution, the addition (regular score plus Cha) has the benefit of allowing you to still benefit if you happen to also have a good score in the regular ability as well, while a substitution (Cha instead of regular score) has the benefit that a poor score in the regular ability can't drag you down.

You've got the choice of more potential strength vs. less potential weakness, but given that reducing MAD is one of the goals, I'd have to favour the substitution over the addition.  Though if you want to gain both benefits, you could add Charisma, and exclude penalties from the normal ability score (while allowing bonuses to apply).  It's a slightly more complicated ability to write, but more beneficial overall.  For example:

"The hexblade adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to attack rolls against an opponent affected by his hexblade's curse, in addition to his Strength or Dexterity bonus.  He does not suffer penalties to his attack roll from a low Strength or Dexterity score when attacking an opponent affected by his hexblade's curse."
 Maybe I'm thinking of Strike a Pose from my Chainmail Bikini Warrior PrC.

Uh, what?

It's seen more use than the hexblade, especially as a dip for Charisma to AC (or Cha+2 when wearing a chainmail bikini).  It goes back to something someone posted back when we had mature boards, and which I have saved in a quotes file:

"This whole thread reminds me of something that my girlfriend, frustrated by the "chicks in chainmail" stereotype, came up with a while back. She decided that there had to be a good, logical reason for women and men wearing such skimy outfits while adventuring, and decided that there was only one possible reason: a prestige class so good that every warrior-type would want to take it. She never got around to writing it up, but every now and again she threatens to bring back the Chainmail Bikini Warrior PrC. LOL." -Hida Jiremi

So I made one, though I later gave it a bit of reduction surgery.  I may now give Strike a Pose another look to make sure it measures up, but one of the notable differences compared to the hexblade's curse is that it affects all enemies within 60 feet.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Nope. You lose. The end.

It's OK; the first stage is denial. Maybe in a few years you'll get past that. Maybe not, but I don't really care.
On addition vs. a substitution, the addition (regular score plus Cha) has the benefit of allowing you to still benefit if you happen to also have a good score in the regular ability as well, while a substitution (Cha instead of regular score) has the benefit that a poor score in the regular ability can't drag you down.

There's a difference (though many people seem to forget it) between MAD and MAB (Multiple Attribute Beneficient). The Monk's Wis-to-AC, for example, is not what makes him MAD - it's the fact that it has to replace armour. If he got Wis to AC even in armour, he wouldn't need any Wis to keep up with other characters, but he would benefit from it. It's also a lot cheaper to boost two stats which are added together that it is to get one modifier to double that value. I'd be happy for the Hexblade to stay Str- and Cha-based if the numbers stacked up such that it didn't lose out as a result.
Wow. You really can't even do the "it's okay, hon" comeback well. Are you trying to come off as a drooling idiot?

I really have no interest in whether some gibbering moron kid from across the internet thinks my "comeback" is "good" or not. I have far better things to do with my time, like picking my nose. I foolishly thought for a sec there that maybe you'd had some counseling or, you know, a brain transplant, 'cos you almost managed to be constructive for a bit in between being acerbic but sadly that seems not to be the case. So, I would like to inform you that I'm going to block you now, because I am clearly unable to help you. Before I do, I will say that I'm sure someone out there loves you (or maybe, one day, you'll be able to find someone who will) so don't give up hope of rehabilitation just yet.

Incidentally, I'm sure you can come up with some kind of witty repartee to reply to me with, but I won't be reading it. By all means go for it in an attempt to show off to everyone else here (like normal) but I will be far too busy not caring. Enjoy trolling other people in the future.
There's a difference (though many people seem to forget it) between MAD and MAB (Multiple Attribute Beneficient). The Monk's Wis-to-AC, for example, is not what makes him MAD - it's the fact that it has to replace armour. If he got Wis to AC even in armour, he wouldn't need any Wis to keep up with other characters, but he would benefit from it. It's also a lot cheaper to boost two stats which are added together that it is to get one modifier to double that value. I'd be happy for the Hexblade to stay Str- and Cha-based if the numbers stacked up such that it didn't lose out as a result.

I agree that the Wis-to-AC replacing armour is what makes the monk dependent on her Wisdom bonus, but she's also naturally dependent on her Dexterity modifier, because it always applies to AC (and would do so even if she could wear armour).  Unless you've got some specific way to remove it, you always have the natural dependency of your attacks on Strength or Dexterity, because that's built into the basic game mechanics, independent of any particular class.

What we've got for melee attacks (for example) is a case where we can use either addition to keep both the MAB and MAD of Strength, or substitution to remove both the MAB and MAD for that score.

As I hope I showed with my example of a possible ability, we can undercut the default MAD on Strength and Dexterity by excluding their negative modifier, while still allowing the MAB of their positive modifier.  Basically, allowing the hexblade to have his cake and eat it too when attacking cursed opponents.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.