## Oozes and Creatures Engulfed

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daedel
Joined Dec 1969
Hi all!

How many creatures can a green slime and a black pudding engulf? Gelatinous cube has a requisite to not engulf if it already has two creatures engulfed, but I don't see that for the other two...

thanks!
Plaguescarred
Joined May 2009
19340 Posts
Because those creature's Engulf power doesn't pull targets into their spaces, its a bit different than the Gelatinous Cube.

Green Slime: It can engluf as many creature as its space and the spaces adjacent to it can fit, since its a grabbing effect against a creature within its reach and there's no limit as to how many it can grab. Including the creature's space, 3x3 for 10 squares.

Back Pudding: It can engulf as many creature as there can be close blast's spaces around it to fit them, since its a grabbing effect against creatures within the blast and there's no limit as to how many it can grab. Excluding the creature's space, 7x7 for 48 squares.

Yan

I think plague meant 9 squares for the Green slime (3x3 = 10 ??)

However, that doesn't take into account vertical space against flying creatures, so a green slime could also grab 9 more creatures above it.  And if the slime itself somehow gained flying, it could grab 9 more creatures below it, for a total of 27 spaces.
Additionally, if all of the creatures in those spaces are tiny, there could be 4 per square, so a flying green slime within a swarm of pixies or birds could actually grab 27x4 =108 tiny creatures. Although that would take the slime 108 standard actions, and unless they resist 10 acid, most of those creatures would probably die in the process.
Also, since a Black Pudding is Large (2x2x2), the entire space around it reachable by its blast 3, is 60 squares (just on the ground), 60 more one square off the ground, and another 64x3 in the spaces above it that it can reach.

However, the black pudding can only use its Melt power on a grabbed creature within 1 square, while a green slime automatically does ongoing acid damage to every creature it has grabbed.
Plaguescarred
Joined May 2009
19340 Posts
I think plague meant 9 squares for the Green slime (3x3 = 10 ??)

The 10th square his the Green Slime's own square. It can also have a creature grabbed in its space.

I didn't think 3D you're right numbers go even higher then and i also forgot about the Black Pudding size, which means its even bigger.

Yan

daedel
Joined Dec 1969
Is that official? Where can i find the rules about grab, engulf and space?
I think plague meant 9 squares for the Green slime (3x3 = 10 ??)

The 10th square his the Green Slime's own square. It can also have a creature grabbed in its space.

I didn't think 3D you're right numbers go even higher then and i also forgot about the Black Pudding size, which means its even bigger.

Wouldn't the green slime's own square be the 9th square?

XXX
XGX
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it would be 8 squares if you didn't count his square.
Is that official? Where can i find the rules about grab, engulf and space?

Digging into the rules a bit more, I think the limit might actually be lower, but the rules for grabbing aren't the best written in 4e (although it is much simpler than the prior edition)

The rules for "engulf" are just what's in the monster's stat block, as it doesn't exist anywhere else in the rules.
If you want to get really picky, the part of engulf that says "the slime grabs the target " technically isn't defined in the rules, but is easily extrapolated from what is in the rules.  The rules correct wording would be "the target is grabbed by the slime."  Yes, they mean the same thing in plain English, but "grabbed" is a condition, while "grab" is only defined as a separate Standard Action power.  Its the same reason monster domination powers say "the target is dominated" and not "the monster dominates the target."

Grab is defined as a standard action on Rules Compendium 243.  This power specifies that you grab the target until the end of your next turn and must sustain minor to maintain the grab.  Note that engulf does NOT require sustaining to maintain the grab because it doesn't say it does.

The Grabbed condition is defined on Rules Compendium 231 (both rules are also in the online compendium Glossary).

The part that makes me think that maybe the limit is actually much lower is this line under Grabbed:
"Maintaining this condition on the creature occupies whatever appendage, object, or effect the grabber used to initiate the grab"
In this case, I would read "effect" as meaning the Engulf ability, or at least the ability of engulf to grab creatures.  However, that seems to be contradicted by the Gelatinous Cube's engulf ability which says you can use it as long as it currently has two or less creatures grabbed, but that could be a case of specific vs general rule.
I know there are some here who will argue that by definition "effect" can't refer to a monsters attack power, but they are definitely related in this context.  Since slimes don't have appendages that are occupied by grabbing, using the limits of the grabbing power seems to be the next closest.
Plaguescarred
Joined May 2009
19340 Posts
SInce it doesn't specifically grab with an appendage, it would be unlimited IMO.

Wouldn't the green slime's own square be the 9th square?

Yeah it would IDK what i was thinking

Yan

I know there are some here who will argue that by definition "effect" can't refer to a monsters attack power

I can't think how they would go about arguing this. "Effect" is clearly defined as "the result of a game element's use". The game element in this case is the power the monster used to initiate the grab. I don't see any other possible interpretation in this context.

Which means, unless the power states it can be used to grab more than one creature at a time (or the monster has a trait that says as much), it can't use that power again* once it's already grabbing something.

If people have been allowing a Green Slime to grab multiple creatures at once, then they've been making it considerably nastier than it was intended to be, IMO. Once it has grabbed one of the PCs, the only attack it can use is its (rather wimpy) 'Slam' MBA. This makes sense, since the Green Slime is supposed to be a Lurker (i.e. a spike damage specialist).

Likewise, the Black Pudding can grab as many creatures as it can hit with a single use of 'Engulf'. While it still has any creatures grabbed, its 'Engulf' power is 'occupied' maintaining the grab(s) and cannot be used.

* Strictly speaking, the power can still be used, it just cannot produce its normal effect, meaning it does nothing even if it hits. I suppose one could argue that damage, etc. would still happen, and that only the specific grabbing effect is 'occupied', but I think that's a stretch. IMO, it makes more sense to consider the power's entire 'Hit' line as a single effect. When a power lets you "make a saving throw against a dazing effect", you still get to make that saving throw against an effect that says you're "dazed and blinded", after all, and a success will remove both parts of the effect.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
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Plaguescarred
Joined May 2009
19340 Posts
Power like a Gelatinous Cube's Engulf don't state it can be used to grab more than one creature at a time, but a maximum number of creatures it can have grabbed before it is unable to use the power again. With such line of thinking, a GC having 1 creature grabbed wouldn't be able to grab another one with the use Engulf power even if the requirement to use it is met.

Requirement: The cube must have no more than two creatures grabbed

So while a grabbed creature occupies the effect produced by the use of an Engulf, IMO other distinct Engulf can be produced to grab creatures since it is not limited in the usage of the Engulf game element (like GC is) nor it is limited in a physical fashion, like appendage or weapon for exemple.

Yan

But the 'Requirement' line of a power can create a specific bypass of a general restriction, even if it's only implied. See, for example, those rogue powers (e.g. Blinding Barrage) that let you bypass the usual limitation on ranged weapons not being usable for close attacks by mentioning crossbows and slings in the 'Requirement' line.

I personally don't like this and think all such powers should be rewritten to make the SvG more explicit, but there we are.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
Plaguescarred
Joined May 2009
19340 Posts
I reported it here long time ago that the rules preventing ranged weapons on Close powers was preventing some Rogues and Seekers Powers from working RAW but the RC never got any Rule Update.

Yan