Several questions

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My opponent had Krenko, Mob Boss out with Illusionist's Bracers  equipped and Mana Echoes out on the field. I have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite on the field. If he taps Krenko, how much mana does he get? And how do I determine in future which abilities trump which? Like continuous is a static effect so how does that work within a stack? 

If I didnt have Elesh out, and he had two  goblins on the field with Krenko and Mana Echoes only. Does he get 9 mana only? Or for each successive goblin that comes into the field increase the mana production? so like, 3 for the first goblin, 4 for the second, and 5 for the third giving him 12 mana total?

Also, how does the card Channel work? Am I allowed to cast it and just pay X life? Or can I only use it's effect when I have a mana producing card  to get more mana? If so, am I allowed to pay more than just one life for a mana producing ability?

Mercy Killing. If I cast this card on a creature with Lightning Greaves on it, is that an illegal target?
1. Mana Echoes has a normal triggered ability: it uses the stack and can be responded to. It also counts the number of creatures of that type you control when the trigger resolves. In this case, each activation of Krenko will add one Goblin token to the battlefield, causing the Echoes to trigger. However, before that trigger can even go on the stack, the game sees the goblin token as a -1/-1 and the token dies. When the Echoes trigger resolves, you only control one creature that shares a type with the creature that triggered it (Krenko), so the trigger will only generate one mana.

2. Krenko's trigger adds three goblins to the battlefield, causing the Echoes to trigger three times. When each of those triggers resolves, it sees they have 6 goblins, so they'll get six mana from each trigger, for a total of 18 mana.

3. You can cast it at any time. Once it resolves, for the rest of the turn, you can pay 1 life to gain 1 mana. You can pay as much life as you want, until you hit 0 life.

4. Mercy Killing targets a creature, so you will not be able to target a creature with shroud with it.

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

My opponent had Krenko, Mob Boss out with Illusionist's Bracers  equipped and Mana Echoes out on the field. I have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite on the field. If he taps Krenko, how much mana does he get?

total ( thanks to krenko's ability, thanks to the copy of krenko's ability).

Illusionist's bracers triggers and makes a copy of krenko's ability. Assuming no responses, that copy resolves, counts the number of goblins to be one (krenko), and creates one goblin token which is a -1/-1 thanks to elesh norn. This causes mana echoes to trigger. Next, the game puts the token into the graveyard. Next, mana echoes' ability resolves and counts the number of creatures that share a creature type with the now-nonexistent goblin token, and sees one: krenko. Next, krenko's ability resolves and goes through a similar sequence, creating a token which dies and mana echoes produces one more mana for a total of 2.
And how do I determine in future which abilities trump which? Like continuous is a static effect so how does that work within a stack?

I'm not sure how to give a general answer to cover all cases, but here's a few things:


  • Continuous effects from static abilities (eg, elesh norn) constantly apply to creatures on the battlefield. A creature enters the battlefield already under it's effect.

  • State-based actions (the rules which kill a -1/-1 creature) are checked before triggered abilities are put on the stack (the ability can still trigger, it just waits to go on the stack)

  • Spells or abilities which which need to check information about the game (eg, the number of goblins) do so when that spell or ability resolves.


If I didnt have Elesh out, and he had two  goblins on the field with Krenko and Mana Echoes only. Does he get 9 mana only? Or for each successive goblin that comes into the field increase the mana production? so like, 3 for the first goblin, 4 for the second, and 5 for the third giving him 12 mana total?

I'm assuming no illusionist's bracers here.

Krenko's ability resolves, and creates 3 tokens. This causes mana echoes to trigger 3 times. When the first trigger resolves, it counts the number of goblins, sees 6, and produces . Same when the 2nd trigger resolves and same when the 3rd trigger resolves. Once all 3 have resolved, you have 18 colorless mana in your mana pool.
Also, how does the card Channel work? Am I allowed to cast it and just pay X life? Or can I only use it's effect when I have a mana producing card  to get more mana? If so, am I allowed to pay more than just one life for a mana producing ability?

You can cast channel at the same times you could play any normal sorcery, and all you pay is . When channel resolves, it modifies the rules in such a way that until the end of the turn you effectively have access to an ability which says "Pay 1 life: add to your mana pool".
Mercy Killing. If I cast this card on a creature with Lightning Greaves on it, is that an illegal target?

That is an illegal target, and thus an illegal play.

My opponent had Krenko, Mob Boss out with Illusionist's Bracers  equipped and Mana Echoes out on the field. I have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite on the field. If he taps Krenko, how much mana does he get? And how do I determine in future which abilities trump which? Like continuous is a static effect so how does that work within a stack?

If I didnt have Elesh out, and he had two  goblins on the field with Krenko and Mana Echoes only. Does he get 9 mana only? Or for each successive goblin that comes into the field increase the mana production? so like, 3 for the first goblin, 4 for the second, and 5 for the third giving him 12 mana total?

This is complicated, so let's work through the scenario you presented step by step (assuming no other actions by either player).

  1. Opponent activates Krenko; Bracers ability triggers and is put on the stack above Krenko's ability.

  2. Bracers ability resolves; a copy of Krenko's ability is put on the stack. 

  3. The copy of Krenko's ability resolves. The number of Goblins is counted (3) and that many 1/1 (modified to be (-1)/(-1) by Elesh Norn) tokens are put onto the battlefield. Mana Echoes triggers once for each token that enters the battlefield.

  4. The tokens are put in their owner's graveyard as a state-based action, then cease to exist. The three Mana Echoes triggers are added to the top of the stack.

  5. Three Mana Echoes triggers resolve. Each determines that there are 3 creatures on the battlefield that shared a creature type with the creature that entered the battlefield. After all three resolve, your opponent has in his or her mana pool.

  6. The original activation of Krenko's ability resolves. Steps 3-5 repeat exactly.

Net Result: No change in your opponent's number of Goblins on the 'field. 18 colorless mana has been added to his or her mana pool.

Also, how does the card Channel work? Am I allowed to cast it and just pay X life? Or can I only use it's effect when I have a mana producing card  to get more mana? If so, am I allowed to pay more than just one life for a mana producing ability?

If you really want to, after Channel resolves you can just immediately pay as much life as you want (up to your current life total) to add that much colorless mana to your pool. It's not dependent on anything else.

Mercy Killing. If I cast this card on a creature with Lightning Greaves on it, is that an illegal target?

A creature with Shroud (which the Greaves grants) can't be the target of Mercy Killing.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

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"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

My opponent had Krenko, Mob Boss out with Illusionist's Bracers  equipped and Mana Echoes out on the field. I have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite on the field. If he taps Krenko, how much mana does he get?

The copy of Krenko's ability created by Bracer's resolves first putting X goblin tokens on the field each triggers Echoes, then each of those tokens likely dies, then each trigger resolves and gives you 0 or Y mana where Y is the number of goblins on the field as the trigger resolves, the same thing occurs again when the original Krenko ability resolves.
If I didnt have Elesh out, and he had two  goblins on the field with Krenko and Mana Echoes only. Does he get 9 mana only? Or for each successive goblin that comes into the field increase the mana production? so like, 3 for the first goblin, 4 for the second, and 5 for the third giving him 12 mana total?

He may get 0, 6, 12 or 18 mana. With Bracers assuming no other change in goblin numbers,  total mana generated = (0 or 6 or 12 or 18) + (0 or 9 or 18 or 27 or 36 or 45 or 54)
Also, how does the card Channel work? Am I allowed to cast it and just pay X life? Or can I only use it's effect when I have a mana producing card  to get more mana? If so, am I allowed to pay more than just one life for a mana producing ability?

you essentially have an ability until the end of the turn that says "Pay 1 life : Add to your mana pool."
You can use it as much as you can pay for it.
Mercy Killing. If I cast this card on a creature with Lightning Greaves on it, is that an illegal target?

yes, the target is illegal

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Lots of conflicting responses here. Let me see if I can break this down for you effectively.



  1. Opponent activates ability of Krenko, Mob Boss. With one goblin on the battlefield, the creation of one goblin token goes on the stack. His ability goes on the stack. AP is about to receive priority, but doesn't, becuase...

  2. Illusionist's Bracers's trigger goes off, and the ability goes on the stack. AP gets priority. Assume both players pass

  3. The bracer's triggered ability resolves, putting a copy of the Krenko ability on the stack, the creation of X goblin tokens. AP gets priority, and we assume both players pass

  4. The copy of Krenko's ability resolves, it sees one goblin on the battlefield, so X is 1, and a 1/1 goblin token enters the battlefield. Mana Echoes's ability triggers, seeing this goblin on the battlefield. There are two goblins, so it will generate . This goes on the stack.

  5. As AP is about to receive priority, state-based actions are checked and sees a creature on the battlefield with a toughness 0 or less, due to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite's static ability. So, that creature dies.

  6. State-based actions are checked again, seeing a token in a zone other than the battlefield (our goblin that just died), so it is erased from existence.

  7. AP receives priority. We assume both players pass. The top item on the stack resolves, and your opponent now has  in his mana pool.

  8. AP receives priority again, again we assume both players pass, and at this point you can basically repeat steps 4 through 7. The end result is that no new creatures are on the battlefield and your opponent has added  to his mana pool.


Let's look at the second scenario.



  1. Opponent activates ability of Krenko, Mob Boss. With three goblins on the battlefield, the creation of three goblin tokens goes on the stack. The ability goes on the stack. AP receives priority. Assume both players pass

  2. Krenko's ability resolves, it sees 3 goblins on the battlefield, so X is three and and three 1/1 goblin token enter the battlefield at the same time. Mana Echoes's ability triggers three times, each seeing these goblin on the battlefield. There are now six goblins, so each instance of the ability will generate . These go on the stack in any order its controller chooses, though since they're identical it doesn't really matter.

  3. AP receives priority. We assume both players pass. The top item on the stack resolves, and your opponent now has  in his mana pool.

  4. Repeat step 3 two more times.

  5. The end result is that there are now 3 goblin tokens on the battlefield, the 2 original goblins, plus Krenko, and your opponent has 18 colorless mana in his mana pool.


The oracle text for Channel reads: "Until end of turn, any time you could activate a mana ability, you may pay 1 life. If you do, add to your mana pool." Basically this means for the rest of the turn, you can pay whatever amount of life you like to gain that much colorless mana. Keep in mind that if there is an effect on you that prevents you from losing life, you will not be able to pay life to gain mana with Channel.

Mercy Killing requires a target creature. A creature that is equipped by Lightning Greaves has Shroud, thus cannot be the target of spells or abilities. Thus, such a creature is an invalid target for Mercy Killing. You will be unable to cast it targetting that creature. If the creature didn't have Shroud, and you then cast it targetting that creature, and it gained Shroud before the spell resolved, the spell would see its target is invalid and fizzle, and none of its effects would occur.

-Arkalius
With three goblins on the battlefield, the creation of three goblin tokens goes on the stack.


Slight correction: The creation of X Goblin tokens, where X is the number of Goblins you control, goes on the stack.  That X is not determined until the ability resolves.  In this case, the number doesn't happen to change.
608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that's become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it's the object as it exists -- or as it most recently existed -- that does it, not the ability.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

With three goblins on the battlefield, the creation of three goblin tokens goes on the stack.


Slight correction: The creation of X Goblin tokens, where X is the number of Goblins you control, goes on the stack.  That X is not determined until the ability resolves.  In this case, the number doesn't happen to change.


Interesting... I would have thought the X would be determined as it goes on the stack. But, I guess not. As you say, doesn't affect this particular scenario, but good to know. 
-Arkalius
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