Unfair to my player?

Do you think I was being unfair to my players when he tried to knock a snake prone and I just had it act like everything was normal?

Stop the H4TE

This reminds me about the Ooze situation. 
I'm not even sure how this happened. I meant to post it in that other topic about prone condition. I'm going to bed.

Stop the H4TE

Sweeping the Coils - The snakes head rises cobra-like during one of its attacks I sweep its bottom coils out from under it flipping it belly side up its head cracking on the cave floor .... it shakes and squirms eventually righting itself and snaps back at me. 
Stepped on its Tail - Another time the snake decides to flee instead of attacking; so I charge after it smash the end of its tail and its muscles twitch causing it to flip upside down and backwards (note how my fighters successful attack stops enemy movement)

see knock down assault.
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think that the most normal way to react would be to ask "what do you mean?" if somebody says that they're going to try to do that. The majority of the time that someone does something that doesn't make any apperant sense, it's because they're envisioning something that does make sense and just not expressing it clearly. (My assumption would be that the player was attempting to flip the creature onto its back or something, but it's not obvious.)
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Yeah, I never had trouble with the whole "ooze" situation either. The snake got flipped on its back, the ooze was flattened out by the dwarf's warhammer and had to take a few seconds to reform itself. It's really only a problem of imagination.
Did you let them know ahead of time that certain abilites and effects would not always work?
If so, fine.

Not how I would have done it, but so long as everyone knew what ship they were sailing on when they signed on, the Captain is in command. 
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Sweeping the Coils - The snakes head rises cobra-like during one of its attacks I sweep its bottom coils out from under it flipping it belly side up its head cracking on the cave floor .... it shakes and squirms eventually righting itself and snaps back at me. 
Stepped on its Tail - Another time the snake decides to flee instead of attacking; so I charge after it smash the end of its tail and its muscles twitch causing it to flip upside down and backwards (note how my fighters successful attack stops enemy movement)

see knock down assault.

These tricks are reasonable for snakes of normal variety; but, when dealing with snakes that are the size of certain boa constrictors (and any "giant" type snake variety), they lose their veracity.

Sweeping the Coils - The snakes head rises cobra-like during one of its attacks I sweep its bottom coils out from under it flipping it belly side up its head cracking on the cave floor .... it shakes and squirms eventually righting itself and snaps back at me. 
Stepped on its Tail - Another time the snake decides to flee instead of attacking; so I charge after it smash the end of its tail and its muscles twitch causing it to flip upside down and backwards (note how my fighters successful attack stops enemy movement)

see knock down assault.

These tricks are reasonable for snakes of normal variety; but, when dealing with snakes that are the size of certain boa constrictors (and any "giant" type snake variety), they lose their veracity.




I don't see why in a fantasy campaign.  IMHO all I see is a failure of imagination.  The "prone" condition in 4e was really just a condition that stated that the target had a specific set of disadvantages.  How that is reflected is up to the DM and player.

-Polaris
Sweeping the Coils - The snakes head rises cobra-like during one of its attacks I sweep its bottom coils out from under it flipping it belly side up its head cracking on the cave floor .... it shakes and squirms eventually righting itself and snaps back at me. 
Stepped on its Tail - Another time the snake decides to flee instead of attacking; so I charge after it smash the end of its tail and its muscles twitch causing it to flip upside down and backwards (note how my fighters successful attack stops enemy movement)

see knock down assault.

These tricks are reasonable for snakes of normal variety; but, when dealing with snakes that are the size of certain boa constrictors (and any "giant" type snake variety), they lose their veracity.




I don't see why in a fantasy campaign.  IMHO all I see is a failure of imagination.  The "prone" condition in 4e was really just a condition that stated that the target had a specific set of disadvantages.  How that is reflected is up to the DM and player.

-Polaris

Only to those who choose to ignore the fact that it actually causes the target to be Prone, which then imposes the set of disadvantages; the same goes for Knock Down Assault (which knocks someone down, causing them to be Prone, which then imposes a set of disadvantages).
Consider the definition of the word Prone.

It means lying with your front/belly to the ground.

All snakes are prone.



In D&D terms, when prone your only movement option is to crawl.
A snake's only movement option is to crawl.

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 Only to those who choose to ignore the fact that it actually causes the target to be Prone, which then imposes the set of disadvantages; the same goes for Knock Down Assault (which knocks someone down, causing them to be Prone, which then imposes a set of disadvantages).


Unless, of course, Prone is merely the shorthand for a set of disadvantages.
However, this is a Chicken and Egg situation, and I'm fairly certain everyone has made up their minds already on this one.
No use in everyone busting their hands on brick walls. 
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Also, if we really want to really pick the nit, Prone means to be favourably inclined towards... being belly down was added hundreds of years later as a meaning... oh English language, you ever shifting rebel you.
So by the traditional definition of Prone, it should have a charm effect, yes?
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
A serpent can be put in a position from where it has to move to go back in position, which is not the case of oozes.

Prone is a word with meaning, but why being strict with the prone word when Wisdom in the same game has nothing in common with what wisdom is in a dictionary ?

I would rule that the snake has been put in a disadvantageous position on the ground, and that it has to follow the prone rules to return to a combat effective position.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Yeah, I never had trouble with the whole "ooze" situation either. The snake got flipped on its back, the ooze was flattened out by the dwarf's warhammer and had to take a few seconds to reform itself. It's really only a problem of imagination.



I agree. It is a game afterall, and every rule or abstract concept in the game can not predict all the exceptions that may occur. So either you let your world shatter into pieces, walk away from the game, and swear never to play it again, or you adapt and continue to have fun. Shrug.
whatever call/judgement you, as the DM, felt was appropriate at that altercation/time/situation, etc.
The proper response is..

"Snakes are immune to prone, you can take a different action".

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

A snake immune to prone is like a tree immune to rooted ! Wink

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Snake:
Ability:  Snakes are always prone, gaining advantage from ranged attacks, but they do not grant advantage to melee attacks.  They can climb trees with Dex instead of Str, and can move though small openings. 


Ooze:
Ability: Ooze's are immune to prone.  They cannot be stunned, charmed, feared or dominated.  They can move though very small openings. 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The problem with that approach is that you have to do so for every monster, you will get into arguments about corner cases*, and make certain attack powers unpredictable in their power. I am a great fan of generalizing conditions, and making them apply to virtually all monsters unless specified otherwise (and then only for very compelling specific circumstances). Having said that, naming a condition prone or blind, and then letting it be something else in practice is asking for trouble. You might as well use more generic terms such as disorientated ;)

* Not to mention that in regards to made-up monsters like oozes we have no idea whether or not they have an up/down orrientation like snakes and hence whether they truly cannot be knocked over. Let alone about something like stunned, charmed, feared or dominated. After all, for all we know dominate overrules one motoric control and not mental control. Since oozes can move, they have some kind of motoric control that can be influenced.
I think it fine for appropriate creatures to be immune to prone (effectively). Other creatures are immune to fire or charm or sleep, I don't see why the prone condition needs to be any different.
New racial traits:

Leg : This trait stacks. This trait prevent a creature from the prone condition. Having this trait more than once increases the resistance against abilities causing the prone condition. This trait allows you to use the Jumper property. If you have at least a stack of two legs, you can also benefit from the walker, crawler and swimmer traits, and gain access to different skills like dance or tumble (determined in the skills descriptions).

Walker : a creature with this property can move on solid surfaces (see "solid surfaces" in the terrain chapter). Some solid surfaces have specific properties negating the effects of this trait, like "vertical" or "facing down". This trait only allows horizontal movement by default within the parameters listed in the table 560 : walker movement allowed by angles and by number of legs. Creatures able to move more freely across different kind of solid surfaces possess specific additional racial traits.

Stomach walker : this property prevents a creature from suffering disadvantage when prone.

I will stop there. Smile
4th edition shown that too many keywords just emphasize incoherencies (note to edition warriors : 4th edition was close enough to previous edition to define most of its incoherencies as a legacy from previous editions).

As a DM I will just consider the prone condition as a global "disadvangeous position on a solid surface the where the creature can stay without being subject to forced movements from the planet gravitational attraction".

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Did you let them know ahead of time that certain abilites and effects would not always work?
If so, fine.

Not how I would have done it, but so long as everyone knew what ship they were sailing on when they signed on, the Captain is in command. 



Cant remember where but the phb or dmg mentioned the possibility... 
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Maybe "prone" for a snake means that it has been flipped over on its back, so it needs to spend its movement to flip over. I could see that, plus...the underside of the snake is probably a little more vulnerable (thus the advantage for melee attacks against it.)

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The problem with that approach is that you have to do so for every monster, you will get into arguments about corner cases, and make certain attack powers unpredictable in their power. I am a great fan of generalizing conditions, and making them apply to virtually all monsters unless specified otherwise (and then only for very compelling specific circumstances). Having said that, naming a condition prone or blind, and then letting it be something else in practice is asking for trouble.


It is exception based design. The general case is "everything can be knocked prone, which mans blah". The specific case is "this monster cannot be knocked prone" or in the case of generalized monster categories like 3e had, you could say "Oozes cannot be knocked prone". Whether you restate the "Ooze" properties in every ooze monster is a matter of how much space you want to include and whether every monster type has properties (historically things like "Beast" or "Animal" did not).

As for using a more generic condition, I don't know if it work. Pushing someone to the ground and "disorientating" them seems a little off in a word use department. This becomes especially true when you wish you could provide ways to recovery from being disorientated in different ways, ie. jumping back to your feet quickly vs. clearing your head quickly.

As for making attacks unpredictable. I say meh. When you cast a fire spell, you might not know the target is resistant to fire. You might not know that the target is resistant to slashing weapons. Etc. This is just one more thing you need to be aware of.

For the specific case of snakes. I keep picturing snakes rising up from the group and coiling themselves up and being ready to strike, while a prone snake would be flat on its belly for its entire length and not coiled properly.
The problem with that approach is that you have to do so for every monster, you will get into arguments about corner cases, and make certain attack powers unpredictable in their power. I am a great fan of generalizing conditions, and making them apply to virtually all monsters unless specified otherwise (and then only for very compelling specific circumstances). Having said that, naming a condition prone or blind, and then letting it be something else in practice is asking for trouble.


It is exception based design. The general case is "everything can be knocked prone, which mans blah". The specific case is "this monster cannot be knocked prone" or in the case of generalized monster categories like 3e had, you could say "Oozes cannot be knocked prone". Whether you restate the "Ooze" properties in every ooze monster is a matter of how much space you want to include and whether every monster type has properties (historically things like "Beast" or "Animal" did not).

As for using a more generic condition, I don't know if it work. Pushing someone to the ground and "disorientating" them seems a little off in a word use department. This becomes especially true when you wish you could provide ways to recovery from being disorientated in different ways, ie. jumping back to your feet quickly vs. clearing your head quickly.

As for making attacks unpredictable. I say meh. When you cast a fire spell, you might not know the target is resistant to fire. You might not know that the target is resistant to slashing weapons. Etc. This is just one more thing you need to be aware of.

For the specific case of snakes. I keep picturing snakes rising up from the group and coiling themselves up and being ready to strike, while a prone snake would be flat on its belly for its entire length and not coiled properly.



You could also state in the rules for knocking prone that "some monsters have no prone condition or are nearly impossible to knock down and your DM will adjudicate such situations as they arise."

The advantage to the DM decides approach is that the reflavorers who will explain a snake getting knocked prone using some other language will be happy and people like me can just say no.   I think by spelling too many things out we make it hard for multiple play styles to coexist.   This is why 1e/2e was a lot easier for simulationists and narrativists to play the same game if not at the same time.

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Yeah, I never had trouble with the whole "ooze" situation either. The snake got flipped on its back, the ooze was flattened out by the dwarf's warhammer and had to take a few seconds to reform itself. It's really only a problem of imagination.


If that's knocking one prone, what's dazing an ooze?

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What happens if you wield a ladle and stir an ooze ?

Dazed, prone, blinded ?
Somebody is hiding critical informations. 

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Just say he's a dwarf snake.


Weird how Dwarves can have resistance to Prone but nothing else is allowed to not be Proned.


  
Just say he's a dwarf snake.


Weird how Dwarves can have resistance to Prone but nothing else is allowed to not be Proned.


  

No jokes about handicaped people, please !

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

What happens if you wield a ladle and stir an ooze ?


soup.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


If that's knocking one prone, what's dazing an ooze?



Lets see the ooze does it have central nervouse system.. must be impossible to do anything interesting to an ooze.. lets remove it from the game.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Do you think I was being unfair to my players when he tried to knock a snake prone and I just had it act like everything was normal?



Of course not. The rules don't cover every single situation, it's your prerogative as the DM to adjust them when necessary. D&D is not a video game or a board game. If your player is whinning because you're not using "rules as written", send him to the table playing Monopoly.
I think it fine for appropriate creatures to be immune to prone (effectively). Other creatures are immune to fire or charm or sleep, I don't see why the prone condition needs to be any different.

This.

Weird how Dwarves can have resistance to Prone but nothing else is allowed to not be Proned.

And this.



Snakes immune to prone (or already prone), make things more mechanicly interesting and realistic.   It doesn't interfear with any other creature, and you can keep the general prone rule. 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Actually, to be fair...

The PC should need to make a DC 3 nature check.  Then he knows the snake can't be knocked prone.

Don't want to meta-game. 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Depends on the rules, and it also depends on whether, as a group you agreed to a rules change or not.

If snakes are not immune to prone then yeah, you're being unfair because you're changing the rules on the fly without clearing it with the rest of the group ahead of time.

If snakes are immune to prone then no, you're just following the rules.

Being fair and playing as a group instead of one guy and a bunch of other guys is more important than "realism," since realism in RPGs is a subjective term anyway.

And on the subject of realism. ever see a snake try to slither upside down?  Doesn't work very well.  They always try to twist right side up again before moving.  If something's keeping them upside down, they tend to get agitated. 

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Do you think I was being unfair to my players when he tried to knock a snake prone and I just had it act like everything was normal?



  I catch lots of wild snakes.  You can knock them prone... well supine, but I don't think there's a condition in D&D for laying on your back.

  Anyway, you take your foot (or a branch of snake hook), sweep it under them, lift them a little, and toss them. They'll often times roll over onto their backs.  They take a moment to roll themselves back over, which is the point where you can grab their tail or the back of their head.
The problem with that approach is that you have to do so for every monster, you will get into arguments about corner cases*, and make certain attack powers unpredictable in their power.



  It's funny how 3E had no problems at all about this.  There were not dozens and dozens of threads about what could and could not be tripped or how tripping something makes no sense.

  They tried to have their cake and eat it too, and it didn't work.  They could have called it "hindered" and probably gotten away with it, but they went for prone, which means a very different thing than what they wanted to say.  They repeated this mistake a lot, they could have called it "winded", but went for bloody which evokes a very specific mental picture that is not at all in concordance with someone shouting at the person to make them "unbloody".  They constantly used the word "wound" and "heal", and nowhere did they say "when we say wound we mean imposition" and when we saying "healing" we mean "refreshed."  They tried for simple and general rules and instead using general terms then went with very specific labels and turned off a huge number of players who can't reconcile a mental image of tripping an ooze or having their wounds heal by stopping for a couple seconds and taking a breath.


@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie

Personaly our group has made the divide between a conditions name tag and it's effect some time ago.

The set of conditions gatherd under the prone name tage might aswell called be named condition number 3.
If the character can resenebly descrive how he would aply these penalties it would be allouwed. 
I have a hard time picturing wisdom as not being intelligence with good connotations, but a lot of people seems to accept that animals are more wise on average than humans.

Words have meaning in D&D until they stop having meaning.
People are then just fighting to decide which ones are allowed to be meaningless.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.


If that's knocking one prone, what's dazing an ooze?



Lets see the ooze does it have central nervouse system.. must be impossible to do anything interesting to an ooze.. lets remove it from the game.


I wouldn't go that far.
I just don't like changing the definition or description of "prone" just to justify a particular power or tactic working. "Prone" does not just mean "you cannot move" or "have one fewer actions". If it were just an action denial condition it'd be merged with "daze". There's the narrative of knocking the creature down: it's not just off balance, it's on its ass. The mechanics are meant to reflect that particular narrative.

You can replicate the effect via other descriptions (splattering the ooze) but that doesn't reflect the narrative and your action might be better suited to a mechanic that reflects the narrative (dazing).

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The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

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