Thought Experiment

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1) Name what you think the worst ten decks from 2013. Don't debate what someone else picked, just put your own idea.
2) Compare those ten decks to the ten we have in 2014.
3) Think. Really hard. Until it hurts, if you have to.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Worst as in least chance of winning or most game-breakingly overpowerd?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg)

I was thinking weakest, but on second thought, I don't think it really matters which way you go with it, the end conclusion should be about the same.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

I saw thought experiment and thought... I can't even think right now.
Any thoughts on that?

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

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You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

Okay so I get what your trying to do here but I really have to ask what the point is? If nothing else isn't it a little early for this sorta thing? The majority of us don't even have the promo cards yets and beyond that we still have some 11 decks to be released.

I feel pretty confidant in saying you prefer control decks over agro so yeah I imagine you much prefered 2013's deck lists over 2014 but that doesn't make 2014's bad or anything it just makes them different to what you prefer. I suppose what I'm asking is do you dislike 2014's deck cause you dislike agro (or at least would have preferred more variety in options) or because you genuinuly think 2014's decks are just build worst?

Oh for the record I preferred 2013's decks (as I prefer control) but I would still say any of 2014's decks are better then 2013 biggest clunkers (Act of War and Rogue's Gallery)

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

Intresting thread, i might have to go back on 13 to look over the deck. Act of war and collective might will be in alot of peoples

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg)

Intresting thread, i might have to go back on 13 to look over the deck. Act of war and collective might will be in alot of peoples



Those are called cells, son.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

I laughed.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg)

Okay so I get what your trying to do here but I really have to ask what the point is? If nothing else isn't it a little early for this sorta thing? The majority of us don't even have the promo cards yets and beyond that we still have some 11 decks to be released.

I feel pretty confidant in saying you prefer control decks over agro so yeah I imagine you much prefered 2013's deck lists over 2014 but that doesn't make 2014's bad or anything it just makes them different to what you prefer. I suppose what I'm asking is do you dislike 2014's deck cause you dislike agro (or at least would have preferred more variety in options) or because you genuinuly think 2014's decks are just build worst?

Oh for the record I preferred 2013's decks (as I prefer control) but I would still say any of 2014's decks are better then 2013 biggest clunkers (Act of War and Rogue's Gallery)



It's not about aggro versus control. I'm pretty sure whether your ten worst are the ten weakest or strongest, you still end up with a more diverse and interesting set of decks which are better balanced against each other.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

DP - no defense whatsoever... You're either lucky or you lose...
AoW - garbage deck, and only 2 copies of cards that might have helped.
BR - only way to win is luck draw of berserk at the right time.
CM - no ramp, but requires massive mana... And it contains green = totally dumb
AS - uggghhhh, could have been so much better

In no particular order, my top 5 with reasons.

Basically all of 2013 = random assortment of disjointed cards.

edit: if there was better balance it was because they were all badly made. 
It's not about aggro versus control. I'm pretty sure whether your ten worst are the ten weakest or strongest, you still end up with a more diverse and interesting set of decks which are better balanced against each other.



That kinda is my point though. Isn't it just too early to do this sorta thing? For all we know the next X decks could be solid gold and really flesh out the variety and styles of play available. Truth be told I'm not *expecting* them to light the world on fire or anything but we can at least let them fall on their faces first before we judge, you know?


Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

It's not about aggro versus control. I'm pretty sure whether your ten worst are the ten weakest or strongest, you still end up with a more diverse and interesting set of decks which are better balanced against each other.



That kinda is my point though. Isn't it just too early to do this sorta thing? For all we know the next X decks could be solid gold and really flesh out the variety and styles of play available. Truth be told I'm not *expecting* them to light the world on fire or anything but we can at least let them fall on their faces first before we judge, you know?





There's already been talk about comparing the base ten of 2013 vs 2014, but I was trying to skew things in 2014's favour by saying "pick 2013's worst ten decks", but even then, to me, 2013 comes out ahead by a little. I mean AoW/BR/RG are just bad, but however you pick the other seven decks, they'd probably be a better format than what we have.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

green still seems the best to me with young wolf
There's already been talk about comparing the base ten of 2013 vs 2014, but I was trying to skew things in 2014's favour by saying "pick 2013's worst ten decks", but even then, to me, 2013 comes out ahead by a little. I mean AoW/BR/RG are just bad, but however you pick the other seven decks, they'd probably be a better format than what we have.



*Sigh* Yeah your probably right. I was mostly just trying to defend 2014 without having any other evidence than 'I like it' and 'It could get better'. It can't just be me whose noticed the forums reaction is just generally negative towards 2014 right? Guess I just tried to jump in and balance it out a bit before the expected wave of '2014's decks suxs lol' posts.

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

I mean it might be they've got nothing but awesome, mind-blowing, well-balanced decks coming from here on out and these are the worst ten, but even then why'd they pick these ten to debut? One way or another they goofed somewhere and they did it big.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

I think that withholding the promos is having a major effect on this discussion.  But, you would know better.

I still totally disagree with your premise though.  I'd rather play AG, DW, MM, the new aura deck, and CoMD over just about any of the 2013 decks.
I mean it might be they've got nothing but awesome, mind-blowing, well-balanced decks coming from here on out and these are the worst ten, but even then why'd they pick these ten to debut? One way or another they goofed somewhere and they did it big.



Huh. It's only now occured to me my argument defeats itself. If the next X decks are awesome then that makes the current 10 the worst of 2014 by default, so its perfectly fair to compair them to the worst of 2013. Guess I lose either way right?

On Topic - AoW -> GG -> RG -> BR. After that it all sorta blurs together.

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

Oh yeah, of course. For example;

There's a certain redunancy amongst HS/SH/EtD/CMD. They're all essentially "throw out fat guys, swing, win." I mean they all have a little bit of difference; SH has access to exiling things, EtD has equal or better removal (post-promos) and fliers, HS has...uhh...well, Protean Hulk if you can live that long, and Spiders. Predator Ooze, but given that the removal in the top decks are exile/Claustrophobia, the Ooze doesn't get much done. Oh, and there's one Ooze, instead of 4x Champ Parish, Lord of...oh, you've heard this part before.

Anyhow.

The point is, CMD basically does everything all four of these decks do, better, faster, and while filtering out lands to improve their draw quality (and hey, Haromize promo too!), with equal or better removal, and generally better creatures (wait until you have Avenger of Zendikar). Also has a better mana base than SH and EtD and a better curve than HS. I mean the promos make a bit of difference, but it doesn't solve that these decks are essentially redundant. It's not like Ancient Wilds vs. PI, which play totally differently despite both being mono-Green decks. Yes, HS and CMD play "differently" it's just that CMD is better in every way so far as I can tell.

Ugh. I want to like this game better. Luckily, there's mods and will be more.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Let's do this a different way:

MM > CW > DP by far
AW > CoMD ?> HS > PI
BoF > FW
AG > PK
DW > OD IMO
MotD > RG
GoL > AS

and this is pre-unlocks.

2014 is generally winning for me. 
Oh, 2014 is probably overall strongest, but the variety and balance is missing, which I find preferable to sheer face-eating power. If I wanted that, I'd use one of the free ways to play Magic on the internet and make ridiculous Vintage decks. AG and MMz are overdoing it for Duels, IMO. *Shrugs.*

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

I disagree, but either way that bodes well for the next 5 decks, etc...  I just wish I could convince them to make a couple minor balancing changes to the bottom 7 decks.  Wish I even knew who to talk to tbh.  So easy to fix, but I guess it will never happen. /-:
I don't get this. Isn't it entirely subjective? I like 2014's decks. All of them. A lot. I liked most decks in 2013 as well. AoW was one of my favourite decks from that game. SS was one of least favourites. If I was going to rate each of the two games by overall fun factor for me (the only factor that counts for me) then 2014 is coming up on top so far.

I really like EtD, but I have a soft spot for Jund decks because I have a real life Kresh EDH deck. I probably am biased towards the newest game because it is new and I've been playing the other one for a year, but when I'm having more fun playing this than 2013 then that's all that matters. Also, the deck editor in this game is much better and makes the decks so much better to build than in previous years, which knocks every deck this year up a notch.

"People are like sausages: it's what's under the skin that's important... so poke them with a fork periodically."

"Lif is too short."

@GoA... How much better is GoL after promos?  Looks great to me, but I can't test it yet.
I'm using six of the promos. Although I find it best in 2HG to pump a partner's more aggressive creatures while I sit back and play defence with Dawnie and 2x Sword Seraphs and Dawnstrikes.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Oh yeah, of course. For example;

There's a certain redunancy amongst HS/SH/EtD/CMD. They're all essentially "throw out fat guys, swing, win." I mean they all have a little bit of difference; SH has access to exiling things, EtD has equal or better removal (post-promos) and fliers, HS has...uhh...well, Protean Hulk if you can live that long, and Spiders. Predator Ooze.



I don't really get this...

HS is midrangish, you are probably using your turns 2-6 to cast beaters and clear the path.

EtD plans to clog the field and remove things early game, stabilize with big vanillas middle game and end the game with  threaths with multiple forms of evasion(flying, trample) and often with haste.

CotMD plan to stabilize with few efficient dudes with powerful effects while ramping as much as it can, then cast thing with big bodies and scary ETB effects.

EtD casting his thing is not as backbreaking as CotMD doing it,but those thing are, if left unchecked, a faster clock and cretures have a very hard time dealing with them.

I still haven't tried sliver hive. It seems to rely on eventually turning everything it has into a really efficient body,while removing everything that those bodies can't render meaningless, you probably want some of your early dudes to stick around until the endgame here.
I'm having the absolute worst time following this discussion. All because everyone keeps posting the damn abbreviations instead of the deck name....who can seriously follow the discussion when u have to stop to think about wtf each abbreviation means?

Frankly the best decks tend to schue after each expansion. Because for the longest time specpucal strainth was the strongest deck! has it had everything a deck could ever want/need to sussed. ramp, draw, single target removal, mass removal, sacrifice removal, life gain, discard, and beefy creatures.  

Some tho where just bad, and failed agents decks of = or better card advantage. For instance grimm possession had a upper hand over exalted, because of the Zealous Persecution. once u wiped out their weeny 1-2 defense guys it's power dropped. with the ability to lock them down with your enchantment and exile their big guys u could lock up exalted. like wise exalted could do the same with their removal. 

everyone hated on the blue decks, but my problem was they didn't need 2 blue decks. with what they had there could of been 1, and allowed for multiple builds...

I also agree with the fact that now that we can finally manage our lands our self's. deck editing has become alot better over all for '14, over the previous 3 games. Now if they'd do a vintage DotPW w/ the vintage decks and allow for editing them, and add dual lands to multicolored decks, then we'd have an amazing game!

But I find it rather ambiguous to say that 2013 is better then 2014 when there is almost triple the amount of decks to play with. 

But I will diffidently name Mask of Dimir as the weakest deck in 2014! with naming it the most annoying to play agents. 

Chant of mul daya, slivers, humans, zombies is the top 4 decks: currently! 
I don't really get this...

HS is midrangish, you are probably using your turns 2-6 to cast beaters and clear the path.

EtD plans to clog the field and remove things early game, stabilize with big vanillas middle game and end the game with  threaths with multiple forms of evasion(flying, trample) and often with haste.

CotMD plan to stabilize with few efficient dudes with powerful effects while ramping as much as it can, then cast thing with big bodies and scary ETB effects.

EtD casting his thing is not as backbreaking as CotMD doing it,but those thing are, if left unchecked, a faster clock and cretures have a very hard time dealing with them.

I still haven't tried sliver hive. It seems to rely on eventually turning everything it has into a really efficient body,while removing everything that those bodies can't render meaningless, you probably want some of your early dudes to stick around until the endgame here.



That's using an awful lot of words to say "their plan is make big dudes and turn them sideways." HS amuses itself with creature-on-creature combat in the mean time, EtD will ramp, remove, or stall in the middle, SH will be trying to get enough guys out to make them all big, and CMD will be ramping to them, but it's all essentially the same game plan. CMD has the slight variance in that it generally relies on lifegain or Tangle more than actual blockers or removal.

The point being that CMD just outdoes them all. It has bigger, better creatures than HS and can get them out faster. Same thing with SH and it also doesn't require keeping the majority of its creatures in play for any of them to be any good. EtD's only major advantage is that its endgame creatures fly, but seeing that most decks will be perfectly happy to kill, steal, cripple, or copy a Dragon rather than bother to try actually blocking it, I don't know that this helps much. At least the hasty ones can offer some upsets.

I'm having the absolute worst time following this discussion. All because everyone keeps posting the damn abbreviations instead of the deck name....who can seriously follow the discussion when u have to stop to think about wtf each abbreviation means?



Probably why we have a stickied directory thread including some of the most common abbreviations - set up over a month ago. We're occasionally foresighted like that.  community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Chant of mul daya, slivers, humans, zombies is the top 4 decks: currently!



Really? Illusions doesn't make your list, but Slivers does? I'd love to see your builds of those two decks. 

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

I don't really get this...

HS is midrangish, you are probably using your turns 2-6 to cast beaters and clear the path.

EtD plans to clog the field and remove things early game, stabilize with big vanillas middle game and end the game with  threaths with multiple forms of evasion(flying, trample) and often with haste.

CotMD plan to stabilize with few efficient dudes with powerful effects while ramping as much as it can, then cast thing with big bodies and scary ETB effects.

EtD casting his thing is not as backbreaking as CotMD doing it,but those thing are, if left unchecked, a faster clock and cretures have a very hard time dealing with them.

I still haven't tried sliver hive. It seems to rely on eventually turning everything it has into a really efficient body,while removing everything that those bodies can't render meaningless, you probably want some of your early dudes to stick around until the endgame here.



That's using an awful lot of words to say "their plan is make big dudes and turn them sideways." HS amuses itself with creature-on-creature combat in the mean time, EtD will ramp, remove, or stall in the middle, SH will be trying to get enough guys out to make them all big, and CMD will be ramping to them, but it's all essentially the same game plan. CMD has the slight variance in that it generally relies on lifegain or Tangle more than actual blockers or removal.

The point being that CMD just outdoes them all. It has bigger, better creatures than HS and can get them out faster. Same thing with SH and it also doesn't require keeping the majority of its creatures in play for any of them to be any good. EtD's only major advantage is that its endgame creatures fly, but seeing that most decks will be perfectly happy to kill, steal, cripple, or copy a Dragon rather than bother to try actually blocking it, I don't know that this helps much. At least the hasty ones can offer some upsets.



Their end goal may be the same, but the playstyle varies.

And I find hard to believe that you can win against them  using the same tactics.

Also two of them are mainly ramp(Chant of Dul maja can aim at summoning big things or gigantic things, but is still ramp, I guess battledriver and bloodbraid elf suggest an alternative midrange build for Enter the dracomancer) and two are probably midrange, so I don't really see the point of comparing them.

Isn't using 8 lords to pump your creatures, using a lot of auras to make a big dude and casting hexproof flyers with 5 power also making big dudes?
MMz is also bouncing, drawing, countering, and tapping. It's a lot more involved in the game. There's variety in the play experience. CMD is the only one of these that draws cards, barring Regal Force, which so far as I can tell hardly any of us are running, due in part to the deck in question having difficulty getting three or more creatures to survive a turn.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

I used to be of the mindset that 2013 had a few stinkers, but you know what? I got back into 3/4 FFAs with friends and totally reversed my opinion. The beauty of 2013 is that some decks work well in 1v1, others shine in 2HG and others come into their own in 3/4 FFA.

Apart from Black, which is excellent in all modes, and Gruul which is garbage in all modes, every deck shines in one way or another depending on what you play - they all have their niches. People rag on Selesnya for example, but that's because most of them don't know how to build or play the deck well. With the right build and playstyle it's pretty damn good.

The problem is 2013 had a relative lack of "press A to win" decks, so because a lot of people failed to put the effort required into making some of the less obvious decks shine, or simply didn't have the skill to do so, they got written off.
CMD actually has a lot going on under the surface too, other than ramp into fatties if built right.

Mine revolves around landfall effects, so that I will keep the Expeditions and only sac when I can gain life or tokens from it, and I use Oracle of Mul Daya as a way to filter my draws. There's so many cards and effects that will shuffle your library you can often reject the next card, which with the tutors allows you a lot of reliability.

I often use Eye of Ugin for this purpose in the endgame, even if I have no Eldrazi left to fetch, For 7 mana if I have an Oracle I can reject the next draw in my end step. It ends up pretty complex.
Yeah, CMD has a lot more flexibility than any of the other Green decks, depending on what you choose to run in it. You can run it as Landfall, tramplers, big Green dudes, Eldrazi, et cetera. You've got options. It's like MMz and AG in that regard. HS is powerful in its own right, but inflexible, and EtD/SH just have enough trouble being consistent, let alone flexible. I didn't think I'd like CMD prior to release but the bare fact that more than one thing can be done with it makes it more appealing than half the other decks.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Yeah, CMD has a lot more flexibility than any of the other Green decks, depending on what you choose to run in it. You can run it as Landfall, tramplers, big Green dudes, Eldrazi, et cetera. You've got options. It's like MMz and AG in that regard. HS is powerful in its own right, but inflexible, and EtD/SH just have enough trouble being consistent, let alone flexible. I didn't think I'd like CMD prior to release but the bare fact that more than one thing can be done with it makes it more appealing than half the other decks.



I think that HS was intended to be run focusing either on having few  creatures out(think enlarge, hunt the weak, auras) or having more out(think maxing glowwidow,overrun, stampede, regal force).

Can't you run sliver as 2 colors + splash , or just two colors if you feel confident cutting fiery justice?


EtD seems capable at stopping at CMC 6 if you wish so, and/or maximizing devour with 4 thallid-dragon fodder.

Maybe it's just that I mainly play casual and limited, so I'm more used to creatures...
I find all the decks of 2013 different yet equaly in terms of
play.
With the promos and all i mean.
They all had a fair chance and their themes were fantastic
along with their incredible synergy, Whats not to like?

I still have some hope for 2014 but by the time we will
have all the decks for it, it will around the next Duels iterartion.
Right now i just cant get in...


Duels 2013                                                       Deuls 2014

GOD TIER...";(
"Dpad Fighter Forever"

 

Worst 10 of 2013 - 1v1 only (as Magic was intended to be played), from least offensive to terribad.

10) Celestial Light
9) Aura Servants
8) Sky and Scale
7) Ancient Wilds
6) Pack Instinct
5) Act of War
4) Collective Might
3) Mind Storms
2) Rogue's Gallery
1) Beserker Rage

Yes, even some of those are better than what we have currently (I'd rather play most of those than Slivers or Dracomancer).  BUT...we do have 11 more chances for the pool to improve.  I shan't, however, be holding my breath. 
Janax grasps my point completely; of his list, I'd rather play any of those other than BR or AoW compared to the current set.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

...Mindstorms the third worst deck in 2013?

That is just crazy talk.
...Mindstorms the third worst deck in 2013?

That is just crazy talk.



He did specify strictly speaking 1 vs. 1. A deck wherein nothing under I think six mana could block Piledriver and very little could kill it? Yeah, I could see it rating low there. 2HG was its true majesty.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

It's the third worst solely because it dies to Goblin Piledriver?  Does not compute.
And what is Ancient Wilds doing on that list?!  AW was one of the 4 or 5 best decks in the game, hands down!
That's hardly its only issue, but third worst is a bit silly.