Kapak PCs

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According to Dragon Mag (421), kapak PCs gain a fly speed of 6.  My question is this:  is this fly speed reduced by wearing heavy armor?  Example:  Scale mail gives a -1 to speed.

The reason I'm asking is CB does not take that into account.  Reading the article, it seems to imply that the speed is not reduced.  I need other opinions.  I'm also sending this question to customer service. 

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 I can't specifically quote a rule, but I would assume so - to be honest, I've always just taken it for granted that it would, and had I rolled up a pixie or draconian prior to this I would have automatically taken the -1 to my flight speed for scale armor.

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RAW, no
I agree with Mad_Jack that it does RAW.

You can find related discussion here,  here and here if you want to read more on the subject.  

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Got a response from customer service.  They basically agree with Plaguescarred and CB was never set up for the fly speed to be reduced.  In other words, they are admitting there's a bug in the program dealing with fly speed.

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CustServ can be spotty.  They told me the exact opposite thing, that heavy armor doesn't reduce fly speed.

Question, September 5, 2012:
I'm playing a pixie skald, and he wears heavy armor. According to the DDI character builder, his walking speed has been reduced from 4 to 3, but his fly speed remains 6. Is this correct? I think it's consistent with the rules as written, as heavy armor imposes a "penalty to speed", and speed is defined as "the distance a creature can move using the walk action", whereas flying does not use the walk action. In contrast, the "slowed" effect explicitly states that it affects even flying speed.

Thanks for the clarification.



 Answer, September 6, 2012:
I will be happy to answer your question for you! You are correct, the heavy armor will not modify the fly speed unless your DM rules otherwise.

Got a response from customer service.  They basically agree with Plaguescarred and CB was never set up for the fly speed to be reduced.  In other words, they are admitting there's a bug in the program dealing with fly speed.



The way I do it is this: if the base land speed was adjusted up or down, then the fly speed would be adjusted up or down as well.
Got a response from customer service.  They basically agree with Plaguescarred and CB was never set up for the fly speed to be reduced.  In other words, they are admitting there's a bug in the program dealing with fly speed.

More proof I'm right. CS is wrong 93% of the time.
speed is defined as "the distance a creature can move using the walk action", whereas flying does not use the walk action.

That's incorrect, flying use the walk action.

RC 203 Special Movement Mode: If a creature can use a Special Movement Mode, It can take the Walk or the Run action using its Speed (or simply stand still) with that movement mode instead of its walking Speed.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Don't forget page 210 of the RC:
To fly, a creature takes the walk, run, or charge action but uses its fly speed in place of its walking speed...


It is this rule that I base armor speed limitation on.  In other words, if walking speed is reduced by heavy armor, so is fly speed.  

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You fly using the Walk action. You do not, however, walk while Flying. Walking Speed is the only thing that is "speed." Everything else is a special movement mode. They probably shouldn't have been called "Speeds" to avoid confusion, but overloading terms is not exactly new to WotC

Walking Speed is the only thing increased, or reduced, by bonuses or penalties to speed. If this were not true, Slow wouldn't need to call out that it applies to all movement modes. And it does precisely that.
Let's go back to page 202.  The main heading is Speed.  There is also a subheading under the main heading called Special Movement Modes.  This tells me that the fly (and etc) is a special movement mode of the general term Speed.  If speed is reduced by armor penalty, then logcially, the special movement modes are also affected because the special movement modes is a subset of Speed.

Here's a chart:



As you can see from the chart if we apply the armor penalty to speed, the special movement modes would also be affected.

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Furious Kender pretty much nailed it down here.

[sblock]

Yeah.... I'm reading all of the actual rules and insisting that any correct answer must account for all of them, yours doesn't, and therefore you're wrong. This'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. 

One of us is certainly very confused by the difference between Walking and the Walk Action, which is explicit in the rules, but it sure isn't me. ^.^

 

I've shown numerous times in previous posts  that key statements you make are factually incorrect and/or simply misleading.  I've shown why they are factually incorrect, which is that they are against RAW. 

Here are some more of your incorrect statements, and I will explain why they are incorrect:
Speed: The distance you can move while walking.

Special Movement Modes: The distance you can use moving a Special Movement which is not walking. Flying, Burrowing, Swimming, Climbing are, wait for it, not walking. 

 

Speed is NOT how far you can move while walking.  Speed is explicitely defined as how far you can move using a Walk action (RC202).  You yourself define it as such here:
"Each Creature has a Speed measured in squares. That Speed represents how far the creature can move using the Walk action." RC 202.

  The Walk action is in no way limited to walking(RC 204, 210 & 252).  So you explicitely can use the Walk action to Fly, Burrow, Swim and Climb.  In fact, there is no action that all characters can take to simply allow me to fly my fly speed other than by using the Wallk action (RC 203, 210).  Because speed is how far you can move using a Walk action (RC202),and you can use all movement modes with the Walk action (RC 203 & 252), all these movement modes comprise the speed variable.  This is why they are all listed under the overall umbrella of Speed on RC 202 to 204.   

Here is another one just chalk full of inaccuracies:
"For instance, a Creature that has a Fly Speed can take the Walk Action to Fly instead of Walk." RC 203. Speed is how far you can Walk. By definition. Flying =! Walking. 

Same thing, phrased differently, on page 210. You Fly instead of Walking. You are never Walking when you use your Fly Speed. Ever. So it, by the very explicit defintion we have, is not a Speed.

Also Walking doesn't say that in the RC anywhre I can see. All it says is you Move up to your Speed. Speed is defined. Not complicated. 

 

There are a lot of things wrong with this statement.  I will take them one by one. 

First sentence: The actual quote is "A creature. . . can take the Walk or Run action using it speed . . . with that movement mode instead of its walking speed. . . For instance, a creature that has a fly speed can take the Walk action to fly instead of walk"  (RC 203).  You're basing your argument on the second sentence, which is an example (see how it says "for instance"), instead of the first sentence, which is a rules statement. Examples don't make up the rules, the rules do

Second sentence: You say that "Speed is how far you can Walk."  However, this is incorrect.  Speed is how far you can move when you take a Walk action (RC202).

Third Sentence: You say that "By definition. Flying =! Walking."  This is true, but you left out an exceedingly important thing. You can use a Walk action to both fly and walk across the ground, even if you aren't using both movement modes simultaneous.  

Second para, third sentence, you state "You are never Walking when you use your Fly Speed. Ever"  This sound better than it actually fits the rules, as you typically must use a Walk action to use your Fly speed.  The real problem is that you use it as a key assumption in your next argument that comes in the next sentence.

Second para, fourth sentence, you state "So it [i.e., fly speed], by the very explicit defintion we have, is not a Speed."  This patently goes against RAW for two reasons.  Fly speed is listed as a speed (RC 203) under the overall header of Speed (RC 202).  Speed is how far you can move with a Walk Action (RC 202), and you can use your fly speed when taking a Walk Action (RC 203, 210, and 252).  Therefore, your fly speed IS how far you can move using a Walk action in at least some circumstances (RC 210, 252).   Therefore, Fly Speed is a real speed.
 

The other key parts of your argument go like this:  

1) The RC on page 67 defines Speed in terms of how far you can walk, not how far you can move using the Walk action.   Well this would indicate some sort of confusion in the writers, if the writers hadn't followed up with another sentence "See Chapter 6 [i.e., page 202] for rules on using a creature's speed."  In other words, page 67 seems to contradict pg 202, but that doesn't matter as the authors specifically mention that the rules are those presented on page 202.  In short, page 67, by the authors' own account, does not contain rules for speed, so there is no conflict in the RAW.

2) Slowed lists specifically on 233 it affects all movement modes.  WoTC wouldn't specify this unless this was exception.
You specify this here:

Look at Slowed. It reduces your Speed to two and specifically calls out that it applies to all Movement modes. That distinction wouldn't be neccesary if they were also "Speeds." They aren't. 

 
As Mand pointed out, the problem with this interpretation is that WoTC could simply be clarifying that the term Speed applies across all movement modes.  WoTC has put clarifying statements of this sort into books many times in the past.  

3) Special movement modes are listed seperately from speed, so they are different and not part of the speed variable.  You state this here: 
Speed is defined. All other "Speeds" are defined as a seperate thing.

  You statement is incorrect and misleading because Speed is the over-arching heading for the entire section from RC 202 to 204.  So they quite literally aren't defined seperately from speed, but as part of the overall speed section.  Why is this so?  Well, speed is how far you can move using a Walk action (RC202),and you can use all movement modes with the Walk action (RC 203 & 252), so all of these movement modes comprise the speed variable.  Again, this is why altenative movement modes are all listed under the overall Speed umbrella on RC 202 to 204.   

Summary
I've now presented many of your posts and I've shown how they frequently go against RAW or mislead in some other fashion.  

Frankly, I'm tired of you trying to bully others into accepting your position, which are frequently against RAW on this subject.  So please either join in a constructive discussion, or leave it to those of us who can.

I think there is still much to discuss, and probably an errata or FAQ that needs to come out of the discussion.   For example, I still don't think we've come to a consensus on penalties. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Pretty long-winded, but accurate.  Goes along great with my chart.

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Question:  Is Special Movement Modes a subheading under the main heading of Speed or not?  Your interpretation would only make sense if Special Movement Modes as a main heading that was seperate from Speed and not a subheading.  If something affects the main heading, does it not follow logically that it also affects the subheadings?

My chart is simply an illustration of how a subheading is related to the main heading.  Nothing more, nothing less. 


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