multiclass multi ways

I just read his

56763708 wrote:
56831228 wrote:
Also, 4e lacked the fluidity of 3e multiclassing.


Not only that but what little fluidity it did offer sucked and that was quickly discovered.  Let's be honest:  The initial 4e multiclassing system SUCKED at multiclassing.  Where it did a really good job was to add a sprinkle of a non-class theme or ability (and some normally unavailable paragon and epic options) to a single class.  The Devs (and I believe they later admitted this) grossly overvalued the utility of synergy between class and normally non-class powers.
Had the hybrid system been in 4e from the start (or been the primary 'multiclass' system), I think it would have helped.
-Polaris




and I got to thinking, could we have in next 3 ways to multi...


2e/4e hybrid  you combine the classes at level 1 and make it half and half.
3e at any level you can take a level in anything
4e feats that let you dabble here and there.


in theory you could  create a hybrid class take level 1,2,3 then multi into a 3rd class at 4, at 5 cheoose eaither the hybrid or 3rd class, and at 6th you could pick up a feat to multi into a 4th class...




          
  

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

I have a sneaking suspicion that 5E will be more like 4E but instead of hybrids of feat multiclassing they will allow multiclassing out of your starter class at certain gated levels. So where you hit Paragon at 10th in 4E you'll hit -insert name I forgot - at level - whatevs - in 5E and have an opurtunity to move into another class. then again at another gated power level. 

My thoughts. 
I'd like them to get the classes right before trying to switch between them.
I just spent my day thinking more about this, and it could really work for 2 out of the three.

3e multi classing and 4e multi class feats could sit togather perfect. So then I started to think that hybrids only work if done ahead.


so swordmage, paliden ect.       

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Well the big problem 4e multi-clasing was that it was simultaneously OP and UP, and that was a problem with feats. See while a basic multi-class feat was at the very least better than taking skill training the powerswap feats and the paragon multi-class were pathetic. PArt of the problem stems from feats trying to do too many different things all at once and not havign a well defined power level, while 4e was better about this than 3e, it still had trouble with feats.
My issue with the 4th edition multiclassing didn't make you feel like what ever you were multiclassing in to IMO. That is not to say however a feat system multiclass couldn't work with the new more powerful feat system. I am still hoping for the 3.# multiclassing.
When talking about 4e multiclassing and applying it to Next, we should be sure to distinquish the hybrid system in 4e which honestly (with a few hiccups) actually worked quite well, and the feat based MCing that came out of the box which to be honest really didn't (at least as a multiclassing system).

I know the devs said they wanted to do 3e MCing, but looking at the classes in Next, I see it as a virtual non-starter for the same reasons it didn't work in 3.X (it'e both too good...for non-casters, and horrid...for casters), and it also would require the Devs be prepared to handle multiple class packages at multiple levels of buy-in for possible characters, and that's a really tough thing to do (and they never really did suceed in 3.x).

-Polaris
When talking about 4e multiclassing and applying it to Next, we should be sure to distinquish the hybrid system in 4e which honestly (with a few hiccups) actually worked quite well, and the feat based MCing that came out of the box which to be honest really didn't (at least as a multiclassing system).

I know the devs said they wanted to do 3e MCing, but looking at the classes in Next, I see it as a virtual non-starter for the same reasons it didn't work in 3.X (it'e both too good...for non-casters, and horrid...for casters), and it also would require the Devs be prepared to handle multiple class packages at multiple levels of buy-in for possible characters, and that's a really tough thing to do (and they never really did suceed in 3.x).

-Polaris



I think at the end with Bo9S they found the compramize. when you take a level of X you count as 1/2 other levels +X



so a wizard 6/fighter 6 would count as a wiz 9 and fight 9
a wiz 10/fighter 2 would count as a wiz 11, fighter 7     

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

I think the current classes would work well with a 3e Multiclass, supported by the 4e Multiclass. Feats can be used to grant limited abilities (spells, maneuvers etc) and a resource to use them. Then you can fill any gaps that the 3e style system seems to have.

I did like the suggested X levels in A counts as X/2 extra on top of B, to augment the 3e structure.

The big question is what level spells should a 10 Fighter / 10 Wizard be casting. How many should they get per day, how many maneuvers should they have, and what bonus to hit should they have?
Feats are going to far more powerful than anything we have seen.

1 feat can increase a score.

A feat will be more like a 4e Theme, a useful chunk of customizability.
3e multi-class doens't work with the way casters are set up. Spells scale base don the level of slot they are prepped/cast in, 3e multiclassing owuld pretty much doom any multi-classer to under leveled spells.

Although I suppose that didn't stop them in actual 3e. So yeah they'll probably do it. After all 5e is the "we didn't learn anything from 3e edition".
3e multi-class doens't work with the way casters are set up. Spells scale base don the level of slot they are prepped/cast in, 3e multiclassing owuld pretty much doom any multi-classer to under leveled spells.

Although I suppose that didn't stop them in actual 3e. So yeah they'll probably do it. After all 5e is the "we didn't learn anything from 3e edition".



Ignore that last one and this one. My phone is being ridiculous.
A variation of 3.5 could work, keyed off how prestige classes were made - When you multiclass, you gain a "base" depending upon your original class, to progress those class features necessary. You then gain a multiclass-specific set of class features from your new choice, as opposed to those gained by the "normal" class.
A wizard multiclassing to a thief, for example, would continue to gain higher level spell slots, but wouldn't gain new spells or any other features, and then either a Rogue Scheme, or Attack Bonus + Sneak attack.

Okay, this is probably a bad idea, but in general I think using multiclass-specific "subclasses" could work well.

I'd also like to see specific class powers available through other means.
You will fear my Laser Face!
Well it was already said that there will be feats that alouw you to gain some abilities of another class.

And I think when they mentioned the aprentice levels level 1 and 2, i think they also mentioned that this would help if they wanted to use 3.x style multi classing making the classes less front loaded.



These 2 things could be combined in a interesting way.
you would have a feat chain that basicly give you the same abilities as the 2 aprentice levels do.

and if you have some of those feats you mihg t be able to skip some of the parentice levels as you already gained the abilities those levels would give trough feats.

We have used, and are using, a homebrew combine 2 classes approach, single (1-20) xp track.

In other words, at hitting level 4 your wizard decides to take a level in rogue.  This makes him wizard 3/ rogue 1, with 2250 xp, and he is considered effective level 4.  Wizard is his main class because he selected it at level 1.

He gets all the benefits of the wizard 3 plus now "most of" the class benefits of rogue 1, but not any additional background, skills or specialization.  We do not stack attack/spell bonuses, you get the better of the two (if applicable).  We do not stack deadly strike, or expertise dice.  We do not stack feats.  You get the specific class feat(ures) your class provides, but you still earn your normal feats based on your main class.

We do not split or track xp separately, we are working on a single 1-20 path.  So, when he reaches 4,750 xp he has a choice, take a new level in wizard (4/1) or a new level in rogue (3/2) and is considered effective level 5.

Were not pretending this is the best approach, or even balanced, but its worked well for us.

"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

4e multiclassing could of been done much better if it was a single power swap feat rather then 3.


Though hybrids still rocked, but i don't see them working quite so well in 5.3

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

4e multiclassing could of been done much better if it was a single power swap feat rather then 3.


Though hybrids still rocked, but i don't see them working quite so well in 5.3


This is where Level 0 is useful for multiclassing.

Instead of frontloading a class with massive features at Level 1, Level 0 allows a softer more gradual start, dividing between 0 and 1.

Then someone who multiclasses would gain access to Level 0 abilities, with less access than one would have when starting at Level 1, but still fully qualifying for everything, and able to advance.

4e multiclassing could of been done much better if it was a single power swap feat rather then 3.


Though hybrids still rocked, but i don't see them working quite so well in 5.3


This is where Level 0 is useful for multiclassing.

Instead of frontloading a class with massive features at Level 1, Level 0 allows a softer more gradual start, dividing between 0 and 1.

Then someone who multiclasses would gain access to Level 0 abilities, with less access than one would have when starting at Level 1, but still fully qualifying for everything, and able to advance.

Apprentice tier should take care of any frontloading.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Two levels is probably too few for Apprentice tier.

At least 3 levels, possibly 4 or 5 would establish the robust “feel” of a class.

If 3 levels, then L0, L1, and L2, are probably doable.

Otherwise, L1, L2, and L3, with the Adventurer tier starting at L4.



Also if L0 is a normal part of a class, then a player can start off at level 1 as a gish: L1 Wizard/L0 Fighter.
If L0 of a class equals the same value as a theme-like super-feat, then the mechanics for multiclass could work as follows.

Spend a feat to start a new class. Advance normally from there.
"I think at the end with Bo9S they found the compramize. when you take a level of X you count as 1/2 other levels +X

so a wizard 6/fighter 6 would count as a wiz 9 and fight 9
a wiz 10/fighter 2 would count as a wiz 11, fighter 7"

I don't have BO9S, so I'm curious. What did a wizard 5/fighter 5 count as? Did that cause a problem every time you had odd levels adding to an even level?
Bo9S *only* addressed the classes from it. So if you were a Crusader 10/Fighter 10, you'd have effective Crusader level at 15 for which powers you qualified for and any level-dependant values. You didn't gain any more features than a Crusader 10 got. At least that's how I recall it. Haven't gotten to actually play anything from it in the past 3 or 4 years, and the one time I did before that was a combat-light compaign with too many houserules and gestalt characters. Ninja/Paladin//Crusader Were-cheetah, go!
A Crusader 5/Fighter 5 would have effective Crusader level 7. Always round down.

If we extended that to spellcasters, your caster level would just be increasing at 1/2 for every level outside of that class, so you'll have more kick on caster level dependant spells, but won't be gaining the higher level spell slots.
2 things.

Casters need to be moved to a system where their spells scale based on total character level, but the number of spells per day they can cast and the types of spells known are based on their actual level in caster classes.

if 3e multi-classing is gonna work I advise that characters be given bonuses depending on what class they took at level one, and that these bonuses would replace some of the usual abilities granted at the first level of a class.

So for example if a wizard took a level of fighter he would not become proficient in all wepaons and armor, he would merely move up a notch, such as getitng light armor prof. 

Where as a character who chose to be a fighter at 1st level would gain an additional two layers of armor prof.

A ranger who mlti-classes to wizard for example would not gain those 2 extra spells in their spell book.

Basically it's an evolution of the favored class mechanic, call it your formative class or somesuch.
I believe the total class level = class level + some % of nonclass level might be the idea because currently all the primary casters use the same spells per day and secondary classes us the same spell per day.

So 1/2 your levels in a class might stack with your class.

Then you can take a feat that gives you +X levels to the spells pre day and spells prepared for a class.

So a wizard4/fighter 4 might have the maneuvers and XD of a fighter 6 and the spells per day and spells prepared of a wizard 6. Later they can take the Rogue Initiate feat and get the Sneak attack of a 1st level rogue.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Some brief thoughts ...



Casters need to be moved to a system where their spells scale based on total character level,


Yes, competency = character level

Or possibly, competency = xp spent

But in both cases, attack bonuses and attack DCs need to refer to the total sum of the character.



 but the number of spells per day they can cast and the types of spells known are based on their actual level in caster classes.


Number of spells “per rest” is vague enough (interpret it modularly). But the “per sleep” mechanic is highly problematic and disruptive to gaming mechanics, to the narrative time frame, and to class balance.



if 3e multi-classing is gonna work I advise that characters be given bonuses depending on what class they took at level one, and that these bonuses would replace some of the usual abilities granted at the first level of a class.

So for example if a wizard took a level of fighter he would not become proficient in all wepaons and armor, he would merely move up a notch, such as getitng light armor prof.

Where as a character who chose to be a fighter at 1st level would gain an additional two layers of armor prof.

A ranger who mlti-classes to wizard for example would not gain those 2 extra spells in their spell book.

Basically it's an evolution of the favored class mechanic, call it your formative class or somesuch.


Or just have a Level 0 that doesnt have as many class features as Level 1 does.


The 3.5 UA had soething called  a magic rating. This replaced your caster level with a magic rating that progressed at a rate of 1 per caster level, 1 per 2 hybrid levels, and 1per 4 non-magic levels. 

So a wiz 10/sor 10 would have the spell slots and spells per day as per his class charts, but he could cast those spells as if he were a 20th level caster, so his delayed blast fireball dealt 15d8 damage instead of 10d8.

This could even be split up a bit so you had an arcane rating, a divine rating, and one could logically install psionic, and initiator ratings.

The problem is again that spells in 5e scale on slot prepped/cast at a lot, although some of the really nasty pieces of work like hold person or polymorph don't seem to care about that. 

 
The 3.5 UA had soething called  a magic rating. This replaced your caster level with a magic rating that progressed at a rate of 1 per caster level, 1 per 2 hybrid levels, and 1per 4 non-magic levels. 

So a wiz 10/sor 10 would have the spell slots and spells per day as per his class charts, but he could cast those spells as if he were a 20th level caster, so his delayed blast fireball dealt 15d8 damage instead of 10d8.

This could even be split up a bit so you had an arcane rating, a divine rating, and one could logically install psionic, and initiator ratings.

The problem is again that spells in 5e scale on slot prepped/cast at a lot, although some of the really nasty pieces of work like hold person or polymorph don't seem to care about that. 

 

I lean away from the concept of “caster levels”, nevermind it is an added layer of complexity.

I feel if a L20 Fighter decides to become a L2 Wizard, he wont be able to cast Fireball, but his Magic Missile is going to be awesome.

When that Fighter is already at Epic tier, any investment Wizard (how ever it might work mechanically) *must* be suitable for Epic combat.