4e as a Fantasy Skirmish game.

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Maybe a stupid question - not really in the 4e world per se, but....

Does anyone play 4e as a Fantasy Skirmish game... where you make up two balanced teams of players who fight against each other, as opposed to one team of players vs. the DM and his array of bad guys?  

I've played about four sessions of 4e in my life and I'm just now getting the hang of the system. I was reading some of the Next comments about 4e and this question just jumped out at me. (I was surprised and caught flat-footed - big negative to my AC.) 
No - it doesn't really work that way.  It's just not designed for PvP.  Players' damage is WAAAY too concentrated compared to monsters'.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
So a what you're saying is that a group of say 3 players vs 3 players would be to lethal? One character would be taken out each turn or would it be all about initiative? The group who's player(s) went first could take out the other group in the first round?

I could see a system of IgoUgo where one member of the first team goes then one member of the second team - would that make a difference? 
It would probably turn into an intiative-off in most cases.

Why not play a game that's designed for skirmishing, like Malifaux, Warmachine etc?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
It would probably turn into an intiative-off in most cases.

Why not play a game that's designed for skirmishing, like Malifaux, Warmachine etc?

Limited resources? I'm low on both cash and RAM (in my brain).

Really I was just wondering if there wasn't another application for the existing system, I might see if anyone at the store would want to test the theory tonite.
*shrug* it's worth a crack I guess.  The disparity probably isn't too huge at low levels, but once you start getting strikers with strong nova potential, it's going to start being rocket tag.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Maybe a stupid question - not really in the 4e world per se, but....

Does anyone play 4e as a Fantasy Skirmish game... where you make up two balanced teams of players who fight against each other, as opposed to one team of players vs. the DM and his array of bad guys?   

 



YES!!!! It is called 4thcore Team Deathmatch, and it is regularly played online and at conventions all over North America. The link below has all of the rules and info. Check it out! A lot of people say its the most fun they have ever had playing 4e!

www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/



Maybe a stupid question – not really in the 4e world per se, but....

Does anyone play 4e as a Fantasy Skirmish game... where you make up two balanced teams of players who fight against each other, as opposed to one team of players vs. the DM and his array of bad guys?

I've played about four sessions of 4e in my life and I'm just now getting the hang of the system. I was reading some of the Next comments about 4e and this question just jumped out at me. (I was surprised and caught flat-footed – big negative to my AC.)


I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

We're longtime players of Mage Knight Dungeons, so when we learned to play D&D4 (we mostly play GURPS 4e, so it took a bit of arm teisting to get us to try a new class-based game) we immediately saw the potential for D&D4 to let us do the same but with customizable characters instead of just the ones Wizkids provides. Granted, MKD pits teams of adventurers (2-4 per player) against hordes of monsters as well as other teams, but the same ideas apply.


Our thought was simply to field standard characters in a battle map, scatter our MKD traps and treasure chests (adjusting them for D&D since they deal damage and summon monsters according to MK standards). When Dungeon Command came along and proved to be a less-interesting version of MKD, we were even more determined to pull it off, but then we got sidetracked by HackMaster 5e's gloriously real-time combat system, so now we're unsure which we want to use. The advantage to D&D is that character creation can take a few minutes, but since HackMaster's character creation is random only and it is half point-buy, it takes a bit longer. But the real-time combat and opposed rolls are just so incredibly fun.


My long rambly point is that it should work and be a lot of fun so give it a go.


YES!!!! It is called 4thcore Team Deathmatch, and it is regularly played online and at conventions all over North America. The link below has all of the rules and info. Check it out! A lot of people say its the most fun they have ever had playing 4e

Absurd name aside, that sounds intriguing, but I can't find a list of the rules anywhere; it seems like they're scattered all over the place.

----------


Between the two of you and my own rambling I'm now inspired to combine bits of both games into a board game that will finally let us achieve our dream of playing MKD with custom characters but wihout the characters being quite as complicated as they normally are in roleplaying games. Like I needed anything else to distract me from finishing my roleplaying system. 8o)

About.me

Drive like you love your children

Through faith you have been saved by grace and not by works. -Ep 2:8-9

Grammar Made Easy – now there's no excuse for sounding like an idiot online.
Games From the Mind of fewilcox – my blog about writing; games, including, character sheets and other roleplaying accessories; and game design.

Maybe a stupid question – not really in the 4e world per se, but....

Does anyone play 4e as a Fantasy Skirmish game... where you make up two balanced teams of players who fight against each other, as opposed to one team of players vs. the DM and his array of bad guys?

I've played about four sessions of 4e in my life and I'm just now getting the hang of the system. I was reading some of the Next comments about 4e and this question just jumped out at me. (I was surprised and caught flat-footed – big negative to my AC.)


I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

We're longtime players of Mage Knight Dungeons, so when we learned to play D&D4 (we mostly play GURPS 4e, so it took a bit of arm teisting to get us to try a new class-based game) we immediately saw the potential for D&D4 to let us do the same but with customizable characters instead of just the ones Wizkids provides. Granted, MKD pits teams of adventurers (2-4 per player) against hordes of monsters as well as other teams, but the same ideas apply.


Our thought was simply to field standard characters in a battle map, scatter our MKD traps and treasure chests (adjusting them for D&D since they deal damage and summon monsters according to MK standards). When Dungeon Command came along and proved to be a less-interesting version of MKD, we were even more determined to pull it off, but then we got sidetracked by HackMaster 5e's gloriously real-time combat system, so now we're unsure which we want to use. The advantage to D&D is that character creation can take a few minutes, but since HackMaster's character creation is random only and it is half point-buy, it takes a bit longer. But the real-time combat and opposed rolls are just so incredibly fun.


My long rambly point is that it should work and be a lot of fun so give it a go.


YES!!!! It is called 4thcore Team Deathmatch, and it is regularly played online and at conventions all over North America. The link below has all of the rules and info. Check it out! A lot of people say its the most fun they have ever had playing 4e

Absurd name aside, that sounds intriguing, but I can't find a list of the rules anywhere; it seems like they're scattered all over the place.

----------


Between the two of you and my own rambling I'm now inspired to combine bits of both games into a board game that will finally let us achieve our dream of playing MKD with custom characters but wihout the characters being quite as complicated as they normally are in roleplaying games. Like I needed anything else to distract me from finishing my roleplaying system. 8o)


Where I play, I'm just not aware of anyone playing any of the games you mentioned. Dungeon Command is on the shelf, but I don't know if anyone is playing it - certainly no organized activities.

We do have a group of people who play 4e regularly, and my son and I sit in from time to time with pre-gens... I was just trying to think of another application for 4e to justify the investment in yet another system... all the more because Next is lurking around the corner. From what I've seen so far concerning Next - I've been playtesting it - It's not going to have much in common with 4e at all. I kind of like the more 'heroic?' (if that's what the kids are calling it these days) feel of the system. But it sure feels more like a skirmish game than a pure RPG. Perhaps it's just our DM's, but about 90percent of the game is combat... the 'role playing' just seems like an excuse to get the group into a hole and fighing bad guys.  

Where I play, I'm just not aware of anyone playing any of the games you mentioned. Dungeon Command is on the shelf, but I don't know if anyone is playing it - certainly no organized activities.

No one plays it here that I know of either. We played the Game Day and everyone had a blast with it (except my wife and I who, as mentioned, found it to be an inferior version of Mage Knight Dungeons), but to my knowledge none of them actually invested in a set. (But we have played MKD at the store several times despite the fact that it's been out of print for about a decade.)

We do have a group of people who play 4e regularly, and my son and I sit in from time to time with pre-gens... I was just trying to think of another application for 4e to justify the investment in yet another system... all the more because Next is lurking around the corner. From what I've seen so far concerning Next - I've been playtesting it - It's not going to have much in common with 4e at all. I kind of like the more 'heroic?' (if that's what the kids are calling it these days) feel of the system. But it sure feels more like a skirmish game than a pure RPG. Perhaps it's just our DM's, but about 90percent of the game is combat... the 'role playing' just seems like an excuse to get the group into a hole and fighing bad guys.

It has been our experience that players do have to be really determined to actually roleplay in D&D. The other requirement is that players have thorough rules knowledge and familiarity with their characters, because without it they're constantly having to read things or ask gameplay questions, leaving them no time to roleplay.

The best roleplayer in our group is 14ish (started GMing for the first time with his GURPS zombies campaign two years ago; while the rest of us have years more experience each, he has more natural GMing talent that all of us combined). When he used to play Encounters he would thoroughly describe all of his attacks, and took every other opportunity to roleplay he could find. He exemplifies my two points in my previous paragraph: he always knows what he's doing before his turn comes up, so time that other players spend deciding what they're doing he gets to spend roleplaying. He is also determined to get in some roleplaying, because for him the dice rolling is to be dealt with as quickly as possible so it doesn't take up valuable roleplaying time.


For me there are only two things that hinder my roleplaying at all. The first one applies to every system: not having a solid enough grasp on the character's personality. One of my favorite characters mechanically is the eladrin knight who was my main Encounters character before I took over GMing. It took me more than a month before I could even start roleplaying her simply because I didn't know what she was like (I'm a writer so my characters live in my head and tell me their stories; Gwynedd, not being from one of my books, was not one of those). Once she finally started to speak to me I was finally able to start roleplaying her.


The other problem I have is D&D-specific, and is very much not shared by our young friend I talked about a minute ago: I feel limited by my powers. Having a list of precisely what my character can do constantly drops me into the trap of thinking that those powers are all I can do, and that, in turn, limits my roleplaying possibilities in combat.


I've always assumed our young friend chose GURPS for his first campaign in part because we do the exact opposite with it. Since our first trpg was GURPS 3e, and we moved on to 4e as soon as it released, my wife and I have thoroughly internalized the rules to the point where the players don't need to know them (other than "roll 3d6 under your skill", obviously). All players have to do is describe exactly what they want to do, and we take a couple of seconds to decide if any modifiers or additional rolls are called for. The result is highly-fluid combat that is almost entirely roleplay, so coming into D&D from that has been a bit jarring, but we've learned to enjoy the game anyway simply we are so fond of miniatures games (our store was partly famous for carrying nearly every Wizkids game, and we still play HeroClix, Mage Knight, and rarely MechWarrior).


Looks like it's time for another tl;dr: I agree that roleplaying during combat in D&D4 can be challenging, but players who are determined enough to roleplay and are sufficiently familiar with the game rules and their characters should be just fine.

About.me

Drive like you love your children

Through faith you have been saved by grace and not by works. -Ep 2:8-9

Grammar Made Easy – now there's no excuse for sounding like an idiot online.
Games From the Mind of fewilcox – my blog about writing; games, including, character sheets and other roleplaying accessories; and game design.

I've done it, but we use monster stat blocks instead of PCs, with the exception of the "Captains" who were leader class PCs.


It can be really fun.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Why not just play some DDM? Check out DDM Guild for rules and pdf's of printable cards. The game uses almost exactly the same rules as 4e but with prebuilt monsters that are very similar to the monster stat blocks from 4e. The game was built for pvp from the outset and is extremely fun to play. You don't really need any minis to play, you can get by with the tokens from the monster vault or anything really. My friends and I frequently just use squares of paper with the creature names written on them.

If you just want to do pvp skirmish using 4e rules, this is absolutely the best way to do it.
Why not just play some DDM? Check out DDM Guild for rules and pdf's of printable cards. The game uses almost exactly the same rules as 4e but with prebuilt monsters that are very similar to the monster stat blocks from 4e. The game was built for pvp from the outset and is extremely fun to play. You don't really need any minis to play, you can get by with the tokens from the monster vault or anything really. My friends and I frequently just use squares of paper with the creature names written on them.

If you just want to do pvp skirmish using 4e rules, this is absolutely the best way to do it.



Cuz I don't like the way it plays?
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
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