Get involved with the Sundering! ??

From yesterday's Legends & Lore...

Some of you might remember the Gen Con Keynote last year where we told you about the Sundering, a huge event that will change the Forgotten Realms forever. The time has come to revisit that topic briefly now so that you know this: Check out DungeonsandDragons.com tomorrow and find out how you can participate in the various events tied to the Sundering and how you too can play a part in reshaping the future of the Realms.

...anyone seeing anything on the main site that I'm not?

I was all pumped to find out how I could participate in the various events tied to the Sundering when I woke up.

 

Danny

My guess is it just hasn't been posted on the site yet, probably later this afternoon or evening.
Coukd I keep fhe Realms the way they look now? I dont want to see Egypt and Mexico return to tge Realms.
Coukd I keep fhe Realms the way they look now? I dont want to see Egypt and Mexico return to tge Realms.

At very least I want Egypt back. Stuff there just got really interesting with Mesopotania just before they were both put on a bus
Yeah, the 4E Realms are my favorite since the original gray box and I actually like the continents/countries better now, though Egypt would be fine to come back.
They said there focus is going to be the Heartlands, so its highly unlikely we will see anything in relation to Mexico/Egypt for a long time ... and even then, its such a small insignificant part of what makes the Realms the Realms that it shouldn't matter much.

Their intent is to right the realms... Salvatore and Greenwood said it themselves that 4E turned their world upside down, destroying/killing much of what made the Realms the Realms, such as 99% of the human characters, gods, and some locations... so yes, the Realms will likely look different then 4E Realms.

In fact Salvatore told WOTC himself don't do this, when they were going to introduce 4E Realms and in the mean time has been planning the Sundering for years, this isn't something that they pulled out of their hat at the last minute. Salvatore/Greenwood knew there would be allot of uproar from the FR fans and the Sundering was going to be their answer.

Its not to say that 4E Realms was all bad, but there are significant issues with it that need fixing.

They said there focus is going to be the Heartlands, so its highly unlikely we will see anything in relation to Mexico/Egypt for a long time ... and even then, its such a small insignificant part of what makes the Realms the Realms that it shouldn't matter much.

Their intent is to right the realms... Salvatore and Greenwood said it themselves that 4E turned their world upside down, destroying/killing much of what made the Realms the Realms, such as 99% of the human characters, gods, and some locations... so yes, the Realms will likely look different then 4E Realms.

In fact Salvatore told WOTC himself don't do this, when they were going to introduce 4E Realms and in the mean time has been planning the Sundering for years, this isn't something that they pulled out of their hat at the last minute. Salvatore/Greenwood knew there would be allot of uproar from the FR fans and the Sundering was going to be their answer.

Its not to say that 4E Realms was all bad, but there are significant issues with it that need fixing.




Source? I never heard about all this thing with Greenwood and Salvatore.

Anyway, I've been checking the site for info about the Sundering since morning (it's 23:00 right now in here) and I haven't seen anything about it, than again the wondering monster column was also late by 12 hours today...

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They said there focus is going to be the Heartlands, so its highly unlikely we will see anything in relation to Mexico/Egypt for a long time ... and even then, its such a small insignificant part of what makes the Realms the Realms that it shouldn't matter much.

Their intent is to right the realms... Salvatore and Greenwood said it themselves that 4E turned their world upside down, destroying/killing much of what made the Realms the Realms, such as 99% of the human characters, gods, and some locations... so yes, the Realms will likely look different then 4E Realms.

In fact Salvatore told WOTC himself don't do this, when they were going to introduce 4E Realms and in the mean time has been planning the Sundering for years, this isn't something that they pulled out of their hat at the last minute. Salvatore/Greenwood knew there would be allot of uproar from the FR fans and the Sundering was going to be their answer.

Its not to say that 4E Realms was all bad, but there are significant issues with it that need fixing.




That those two were up in arms about the 4e changes to the Realms is all I need to know about it, to know they were a step in the right direction.

Regardless, I'm curious how they intend to involve people in the events, also. 
About half way through this video (around 11 minutes and 30 seconds in), Bob eventually starts talking about 4E realms and how Ed was almost in tears when WOTC pretty much took a hammer to his world with 4th Edition.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLf1hBUr9M4
Meh, like there weren't three hammers taken to it already. At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.
Meh, like there weren't three hammers taken to it already. At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.



I'm confused, are you a Forgotten Realms fan whatsoever? or are you just a 4E fanboy here to insult the novelists who made the world?

Anyways, yes there has been cataclysms in the past, but nothing to the extent of 4E Realms where everything was literely wiped out and replaced by... well, not much, there is very little 4E lore — and that's the biggest problem in my view, skip 100 years and leave everything blank ... what's the point? may as well just create my own world.
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That those two were up in arms about the 4e changes to the Realms is all I need to know about it, to know they were a step in the right direction. 



What I find interesting is that these two authors have made some of their best stories since the Spellplague was planned. Driz'zt and Elminster actually progressed as characters, and were actually challenged for the first time in a while.  

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

I'm confused, are you a Forgotten Realms fan whatsoever? or are you just a 4E fanboy here to insult the novelists who made the world?



A lot of people liked the Realms before the novels took over. Back when Ed's RPG work defined the Realms as a RPG setting more than what the most recent novel redefined the RPG setting.

Anyways, yes there has been cataclysms in the past, but nothing to the extent of 4E Realms where everything was literely wiped out



All god expelled to the mortal realm for a year, entire pantheons exterminated, Unther overthrown, entire assassin guilds wiped out, and a new cosmology. That was the Avatar Crisis.

3ed transition had the death of King Azoun, growth of Red Wizards as merchants, and a dozen other small changes that you had to comb through to find out.

At least 4ed filled the new book with things you didn't already know. 

that's the biggest problem in my view, skip 100 years and leave everything blank ... what's the point? may as well just create my own world.



Forgotten Realms fans are always asking for more fluff, but eventually you fill in the map. So WotC advanced the timeline, created a new canvas to work with. 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Meh, like there weren't three hammers taken to it already. At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.



I'm confused, are you a Forgotten Realms fan whatsoever? or are you just a 4E fanboy here to insult the novelists who made the world?




That seems to be the case.
They said there focus is going to be the Heartlands, so its highly unlikely we will see anything in relation to Mexico/Egypt for a long time ... and even then, its such a small insignificant part of what makes the Realms the Realms that it shouldn't matter much.

Their intent is to right the realms... Salvatore and Greenwood said it themselves that 4E turned their world upside down, destroying/killing much of what made the Realms the Realms, such as 99% of the human characters, gods, and some locations... so yes, the Realms will likely look different then 4E Realms.

In fact Salvatore told WOTC himself don't do this, when they were going to introduce 4E Realms and in the mean time has been planning the Sundering for years, this isn't something that they pulled out of their hat at the last minute. Salvatore/Greenwood knew there would be allot of uproar from the FR fans and the Sundering was going to be their answer.

Its not to say that 4E Realms was all bad, but there are significant issues with it that need fixing.



Well it matters to me because I actually like Akanûl and Thymanther. I actually liked Returned Abeir and the difference in scope and style they brought. What I hated were the RL parallels to mexico and egypt and wholely stolen deities from that mythology. I really don't care what R.A or Greenwood thought of the changes because they're just writers in the setting. Yes, I've read almost EVERY Drizzt book and most of the Elminsters novels too. Yes I bought tons and tons of material for pre-3E and yes I enjoyed the Realms to degree. But it was in spite of Chosen of Deity X, in spite of Mexico/Egypt, in spite of Archmages in every single hamlet, small town, or city.  

Also, while I think the 100 year jump and the death of Mystra were the two significant and drastic changes to the Realms, they're not fixing on (the time jump) and HOPEFULLY they'll bring back Mystra without the Mary Sue personality and overall Vast Power she held over every single magic user on the face of the planet. That was another setting issue I had, the weave and how even divine spells were passed through it. Sorry but Mystra should NEVER be allowed to deny a cleric of another deity their spells simply because she has control of the Weave. 

Meh, like there weren't three hammers taken to it already. At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.



I'm confused, are you a Forgotten Realms fan whatsoever? or are you just a 4E fanboy here to insult the novelists who made the world?

Anyways, yes there has been cataclysms in the past, but nothing to the extent of 4E Realms where everything was literely wiped out and replaced by... well, not much, there is very little 4E lore — and that's the biggest problem in my view, skip 100 years and leave everything blank ... what's the point? may as well just create my own world.



First, this is a problem I have with other FR-fanboys. That it comes into question one's fandom if they enjoy the changes to the Realms post 4E or don't wholeheartedly LOVE everything about pre-4E. Questioning one's fandom to a genre or setting is in poor form based on a few likes or casualness of events unfolded. I played and loved the Realms pre-4E despite having major issues with some of it's features. I hated how WotC/TSR produced rules for Chosen, for the untold masses of Epic Level NPCs, for Gods and their Avatars. I hated RL elements that snuck their way in. I hated that they still weren't clear if Gunnpowder was magical or not (sourcebooks say one way, novels say another). That every single evil organization plans played out like a bad Saturday morning cartoon with the "unlikely" heroes ALAWYS saving the day with very little consequences to the region, their lives, or the setting itself.

As for not being replaced with more lore, I can understand that and I think it's a darn shame. They had an amazing, golden opportunity to write some new and awesome Realmslore for Returned Abeir, Tymanther, Akanûl as well as turning Zhentil Keep into a truely awesome adventuring place. They could've written the reclaimation of Myth Drannor much better and turned that into a great place to further elven interests or had ways to incorporate the areas heavily subjected to the Spellplague (like Halruaa). But they sat on it, re-writing informaiton about the same places (waterdeep, baldur's gate, neverwinter, the underdark) as they do with every single edition that comes out. It was a waste of time (well, Neverwinter was pretty decent).  
At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.




It was something  far, far worse, and insulting.
At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.




It was something  far, far worse, and insulting.



I dunno, I thought the 4E Realms brought about a golden age to the setting. The eminence of Araunt was pretty cool. Thay turning into a zombie-land is something I did to my own Realms setting, so it was nice to see this actually canon. I thought the removal of most "Chosen" was a step in the right direction. The Realms doesn't really need overpowered NPCs dotting every single city and town. The culling (or, really, not-detailing) of the vastly ridiculous amount of deities that overlapped on so many levels, not to mention that each race (except humans) appeard to have their own pantheon that did the same thing.
Meh, like there weren't three hammers taken to it already. At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.



I'm confused, are you a Forgotten Realms fan whatsoever? or are you just a 4E fanboy here to insult the novelists who made the world?




That seems to be the case.



Personaly i'm not sombody that has a real intrest in published settings.
But forgotten realms has become more then a campaign setting.

If it had just been a campaign setting without any of the books that play in the world and they said well we made some mistakes the NPC's we introduced arew way to powerfull and overshadowing the players so we are going to advance the time line.
It would have been less of a problem maybe even a very good move, becouse people seem to be less invested in a NPC that just happens to be in a campign guide, or happens to be in a adventure.

But becouse forgotten realms is more then just a campsign setting with all the books people are way more invested in the current state of the world. and the characters in it.


Man, still waiting....
i think the important thing to keep in mind is that the 5e FR is finally getting treated with the respect it deserves. i loved 4e's realms just as much as pre-4e FR, but we can all agree that it could have been handled better.

i think WotC may just redeem themselves with the sundering. they've finally brought some really talented authors in on the design process, and they seem like they're doing their best not to step on any of the fans' toes. 
i think the important thing to keep in mind is that the 5e FR is finally getting treated with the respect it deserves. i loved 4e's realms just as much as pre-4e FR, but we can all agree that it could have been handled better.

i think WotC may just redeem themselves with the sundering. they've finally brought some really talented authors in on the design process, and they seem like they're doing their best not to step on any of the fans' toes. 



I can agree with that.

Whether you like the 4E changes or not, fact is 4E didn't give a whole lot of attention to the Forgotten Realms, at least not to the extent that it did in the past nor how much it deserves.


It sounds like RA Salvatore and Ed Greenwood and the others have put allot of thought and care into the Sundering, so I am very excited to see what comes of it.

That being said... Shouldn't of we of had an announcement by now as Mearls promised us yesterday? lol      
Seems to me that if what they wanted for 4e was an apocalyptic wasteland, they already had Dark Sun. Why blast the FR for it? That was like deciding your network needs a gritty cop drama, so you set fire to Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Bad writing. Hopefully they can undo the damage.
Whatever. As long as they don't feel the need to ruin Eberron in the new edition, all will be well.

Stop the H4TE

Seems to me that if what they wanted for 4e was an apocalyptic wasteland, they already had Dark Sun. Why blast the FR for it? That was like deciding your network needs a gritty cop drama, so you set fire to Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Bad writing. Hopefully they can undo the damage.



That's not nearly the scope the changes actually made. Neverwinter looks relatively the same, Baldur's Gate looks the same. Waterdeep looks the same. Calimport/Calimshan looks the same. Cormyr looks the same. Sembia looks the same. The Moonsea looks roughly the same, minus Zhentil Keep. The Anauroch desert looks a bit more fertile yet the dimensions are the same. Silverymoon and other areas of Lurar look the same. Mithral Hall and the The North along with Oboulds Kingdom look the same. The Lake of Steam and the Border Kingdoms remain largely intact. Aglarond and Rasheman look about the same. Huge areas of the Underdark were practically untouched. Most of the Western Heartlands remained untouched. Impiltur, Damara, and Vaasa all appear close to their former selves despite the lowered depth of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Yea......not exactly an apocalytic wasteland in the least. Yes, there are areas where the Spellplague hit harder so Halruaa is gone along with a good portion of the Vilhon Reach. Mulhorand and Maztica were replaced with other parts of Abeir. And the great Chasim runs though a portion of the southlands. To me, none of these areas are remotely popular or areas of great attention in the overall setting. Novels aren't written about these palces. They were barely touched by supplements. No video game even sported people FROM these places. How many NPCs can you name that are from Chult? Or the Shaar? Or Estagund? I bet you couldn't even locate Thindol if you weren't given a map. 

Other aspects, such as Chosen and their epic-ness, well these have been problems people have been complaining about for a long while now (people both who hate and still love the Realms) and I'm glad they got knocked down a peg or 50. This was a good thing IMO. It gave some relevance to my mid- to high-level PCs. My biggest complaint about these uber-NPCs was that they were fully statted out, thus making them little better than things to throw at your PCs later down the road. Do we NEED Drizzt's stats? Or Elminsters? Or what the mechanics are of being a Chosen? Couldn't this have been left up to DM interpretation? Did these need codified rules? No, not really yet there they were, mucking up my FRCS.

Last, the rules for 4E in no way what-so-ever invalidated the pre-4E Realms, the Weave, or Mystra. Mystra didn't need to be killed and the Weave destroyed to incorporate 4E mechanics. Some people think this is true, but it's not. The edition change was believed to be a good time to shake things up in an attempt to gain more FR fans at the cost of some of the die-hard fans. Obviously the gambled in part failed (regardless if I thought it was a success). But it really had little to do with ushering in the 4E Rules under the FR roof and more of an attempt to get new fans interested into a setting with other 30+ years of hard-coded Canon shoved into the setting. I don't know how successful they were in bringing in new people to the setting with the less is more approach to the Canon nor, frankly, do I care. It's apparently important to some people however.

All I can hope for is that the Sundering doesn't mess up what we've all experienced thus far and that the Realms continues FORWARD instead of looking back.
I think a number of the characters in the sundering novels actual come from or work with people from returned Abeir. So the worlds might get seperated again, but the races like tiefling, dragonborn and genasi have already been integrated into FR and I would be surprised if that changed.

I believe they are refering to the multi table events like the one they ran on FreeRPG day, Encounters and other Con events. I think they mentioned something about it during the last Cons in a tweet or something like that.

Since they already said the sundering is going to be 10 years in the future it is a safe bet that there won't be any revisions happening. Erin Evans gave some insight into the Sundering when her book Lesser Evils was up for discussion in the book club forums.

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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />That's not nearly the scope the changes actually made. Neverwinter looks relatively the same, Baldur's Gate looks the same. Waterdeep looks the same. Calimport/Calimshan looks the same. Cormyr looks the same. Sembia looks the same. The Moonsea looks roughly the same, minus Zhentil Keep. The Anauroch desert looks a bit more fertile yet the dimensions are the same. Silverymoon and other areas of Lurar look the same. Mithral Hall and the The North along with Oboulds Kingdom look the same. The Lake of Steam and the Border Kingdoms remain largely intact. Aglarond and Rasheman look about the same. Huge areas of the Underdark were practically untouched. Most of the Western Heartlands remained untouched. Impiltur, Damara, and Vaasa all appear close to their former selves despite the lowered depth of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Yea......not exactly an apocalytic wasteland in the least. Yes, there are areas where the Spellplague hit harder so Halruaa is gone along with a good portion of the Vilhon Reach. Mulhorand and Maztica were replaced with other parts of Abeir. And the great Chasim runs though a portion of the southlands. To me, none of these areas are remotely popular or areas of great attention in the overall setting. Novels aren't written about these palces. They were barely touched by supplements. No video game even sported people FROM these places. How many NPCs can you name that are from Chult? Or the Shaar? Or Estagund? I bet you couldn't even locate Thindol if you weren't given a map. 

Other aspects, such as Chosen and their epic-ness, well these have been problems people have been complaining about for a long while now (people both who hate and still love the Realms) and I'm glad they got knocked down a peg or 50. This was a good thing IMO. It gave some relevance to my mid- to high-level PCs. My biggest complaint about these uber-NPCs was that they were fully statted out, thus making them little better than things to throw at your PCs later down the road. Do we NEED Drizzt's stats? Or Elminsters? Or what the mechanics are of being a Chosen? Couldn't this have been left up to DM interpretation? Did these need codified rules? No, not really yet there they were, mucking up my FRCS.

Last, the rules for 4E in no way what-so-ever invalidated the pre-4E Realms, the Weave, or Mystra. Mystra didn't need to be killed and the Weave destroyed to incorporate 4E mechanics. Some people think this is true, but it's not. The edition change was believed to be a good time to shake things up in an attempt to gain more FR fans at the cost of some of the die-hard fans. Obviously the gambled in part failed (regardless if I thought it was a success). But it really had little to do with ushering in the 4E Rules under the FR roof and more of an attempt to get new fans interested into a setting with other 30+ years of hard-coded Canon shoved into the setting. I don't know how successful they were in bringing in new people to the setting with the less is more approach to the Canon nor, frankly, do I care. It's apparently important to some people however.

All I can hope for is that the Sundering doesn't mess up what we've all experienced thus far and that the Realms continues FORWARD instead of looking back.



They destroyed quite a bit actually.  Waterdeep, The mercantile center of the north had its Harbor destroyed.  Neverwinter has a huge gulch in it and the city infrastructure was virtually destroyed.  Moonshaes are being ripped apart by Fey battles, it is not nearly the same Moonshaes.  I can show you by taking the previous moonshaes side by side with what they wrote in Dragon for the new moonshaes. You don't like Mulhorand, but I ran campaigns in there with a HUGE supplement written in 1st edition (One of the biggest supplements in page count and information that was NOT a box set).  Reading that supplement you will see Mulhorand is Egypt only superficially.  Var the Golden and the other south lands (another huge supplemnt) was completely Drowned, Sembia was taken over by shade.  They pretty much changed the entire theme of the realms with the 4e supplement.

I know you and I differ greatly on our views on the 4e realms.  I am OK with keeping the timeline because I think Ed Greenwood and RA Salvatore are largely bringing the relams back to its previous state.  I just find the 4e realms completely subtractive.  It did nto add anything to an already established setting, it just changed the information around. 

I know you like Abeir, but I honestly think that is its own distinct campaign world.  It would be like dropping Krynn in to the ocean.  Get rid of it, make it its own thing.  It was not however the world of the forgotten realms.  Maztica I will grant you is no better, but Mulhorrand and Unther were part of Ed Greenwood's realms and remainders from when the FR and Mundane Earth were much closer.

None of my gripes actually have anything to do with 4e.  Genasi were already part of the realms, and I hated that the developers felt the need to come up with a completely new story for them, in effect also leveling large parts of calimshan.  Tieflings have been in the realms forever, and Dragonborn I would have rather seen chaged to Suarials but I really don't care.  We didn't need a city of them dropped into the realms, they could have been brought in organically instead of having them shoehorned in there.

The Changes to the realms in 4e were the most abrupt yet as far as geography and political structure are concerned.  I don't think the 4e realms added anything positive to the setting.  I think the complexity of the realms was sacrificed for the vaunted new gamers that never showed up.

The good news is that Ed greenwood, Ra Salvatore, and Troy Denning have been working on a fix for this since 2007 when they knew the new realms would not fly over well with the fans.  Some fans like it, but annecdotally from what I can tell on the Realms fan sites, it did not go over well.  For myself, I might have switched to 4e if they did not rewrite the forgotten realms.  I know a lot of people that say the same thing.

For 4e the developers made changes and told the writers what to write.  Now the writers of the setting are making the changes.  I have faith they will fix the realms and do it justice.
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At least 4ed filled the new book with things you didn't already know. 
 



Yeah, no.  I got the latest Forgotten Realms books excited to try and find out what had happened, but they had very little usable information.

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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />That's not nearly the scope the changes actually made. Neverwinter looks relatively the same, Baldur's Gate looks the same. Waterdeep looks the same. Calimport/Calimshan looks the same. Cormyr looks the same. Sembia looks the same. The Moonsea looks roughly the same, minus Zhentil Keep. The Anauroch desert looks a bit more fertile yet the dimensions are the same. Silverymoon and other areas of Lurar look the same. Mithral Hall and the The North along with Oboulds Kingdom look the same. The Lake of Steam and the Border Kingdoms remain largely intact. Aglarond and Rasheman look about the same. Huge areas of the Underdark were practically untouched. Most of the Western Heartlands remained untouched. Impiltur, Damara, and Vaasa all appear close to their former selves despite the lowered depth of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Yea......not exactly an apocalytic wasteland in the least. Yes, there are areas where the Spellplague hit harder so Halruaa is gone along with a good portion of the Vilhon Reach. Mulhorand and Maztica were replaced with other parts of Abeir. And the great Chasim runs though a portion of the southlands. To me, none of these areas are remotely popular or areas of great attention in the overall setting. Novels aren't written about these palces. They were barely touched by supplements. No video game even sported people FROM these places. How many NPCs can you name that are from Chult? Or the Shaar? Or Estagund? I bet you couldn't even locate Thindol if you weren't given a map. 

Other aspects, such as Chosen and their epic-ness, well these have been problems people have been complaining about for a long while now (people both who hate and still love the Realms) and I'm glad they got knocked down a peg or 50. This was a good thing IMO. It gave some relevance to my mid- to high-level PCs. My biggest complaint about these uber-NPCs was that they were fully statted out, thus making them little better than things to throw at your PCs later down the road. Do we NEED Drizzt's stats? Or Elminsters? Or what the mechanics are of being a Chosen? Couldn't this have been left up to DM interpretation? Did these need codified rules? No, not really yet there they were, mucking up my FRCS.

Last, the rules for 4E in no way what-so-ever invalidated the pre-4E Realms, the Weave, or Mystra. Mystra didn't need to be killed and the Weave destroyed to incorporate 4E mechanics. Some people think this is true, but it's not. The edition change was believed to be a good time to shake things up in an attempt to gain more FR fans at the cost of some of the die-hard fans. Obviously the gambled in part failed (regardless if I thought it was a success). But it really had little to do with ushering in the 4E Rules under the FR roof and more of an attempt to get new fans interested into a setting with other 30+ years of hard-coded Canon shoved into the setting. I don't know how successful they were in bringing in new people to the setting with the less is more approach to the Canon nor, frankly, do I care. It's apparently important to some people however.

All I can hope for is that the Sundering doesn't mess up what we've all experienced thus far and that the Realms continues FORWARD instead of looking back.



They destroyed quite a bit actually.  Waterdeep, The mercantile center of the north had its Harbor destroyed.  Neverwinter has a huge gulch in it and the city infrastructure was virtually destroyed.  Moonshaes are being ripped apart by Fey battles, it is not nearly the same Moonshaes.  I can show you by taking the previous moonshaes side by side with what they wrote in Dragon for the new moonshaes. You don't like Mulhorand, but I ran campaigns in there with a HUGE supplement written in 1st edition (One of the biggest supplements in page count and information that was NOT a box set).  Reading that supplement you will see Mulhorand is Egypt only superficially.  Var the Golden and the other south lands (another huge supplemnt) was completely Drowned, Sembia was taken over by shade.  They pretty much changed the entire theme of the realms with the 4e supplement.

I know you and I differ greatly on our views on the 4e realms.  I am OK with keeping the timeline because I think Ed Greenwood and RA Salvatore are largely bringing the relams back to its previous state.  I just find the 4e realms completely subtractive.  It did nto add anything to an already established setting, it just changed the information around. 

I know you like Abeir, but I honestly think that is its own distinct campaign world.  It would be like dropping Krynn in to the ocean.  Get rid of it, make it its own thing.  It was not however the world of the forgotten realms.  Maztica I will grant you is no better, but Mulhorrand and Unther were part of Ed Greenwood's realms and remainders from when the FR and Mundane Earth were much closer.

None of my gripes actually have anything to do with 4e.  Genasi were already part of the realms, and I hated that the developers felt the need to come up with a completely new story for them, in effect also leveling large parts of calimshan.  Tieflings have been in the realms forever, and Dragonborn I would have rather seen chaged to Suarials but I really don't care.  We didn't need a city of them dropped into the realms, they could have been brought in organically instead of having them shoehorned in there.

The Changes to the realms in 4e were the most abrupt yet as far as geography and political structure are concerned.  I don't think the 4e realms added anything positive to the setting.  I think the complexity of the realms was sacrificed for the vaunted new gamers that never showed up.

The good news is that Ed greenwood, Ra Salvatore, and Troy Denning have been working on a fix for this since 2007 when they knew the new realms would not fly over well with the fans.  Some fans like it, but annecdotally from what I can tell on the Realms fan sites, it did not go over well.  For myself, I might have switched to 4e if they did not rewrite the forgotten realms.  I know a lot of people that say the same thing.

For 4e the developers made changes and told the writers what to write.  Now the writers of the setting are making the changes.  I have faith they will fix the realms and do it justice.



I personal like the 4e Realms. There are far more characters introduced in FR novels post spellplague that I have found interesting than pre-spell plague. Plus  some of the older characters have been far more interest to me now then before. Granted there have also been some pretty terrrible books written as well. 

I really don't see how the changes your expecting are going to happen considering that at least one of the authors selected to write a sundering novels has characters with backgrounds centered around returned Abeir. I suppose their home could disappear and leave them behind, but it is doubtful that it will go completely back to its previous state. Mystra has returned and I would expect other gods will follow suit, but I think it will be more the FR recovering from the spell plague. I guess we will have to see. Hopefully it will be something all FR fans can get behind.

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Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
I love the Forgotten Realms, regardless of edition. There are some things that happened in the most recent one (4e) that I wish hadn't though:

1) The total reshaping of the pantheon of the Realms. Gods were killing each other and mortals were becoming gods in earlier editions, that's true. My problem is the bringing in of gods from Greyhawk, like Vecna, and in general allowing the gods to be a part of any world you wanted them to be in. I like having separate worlds with their own gods, races, etc.

2) Allowing races from Eberron and Dark Sun to be a part of the setting. Again, I'm old school when it comes to this. I know a lot of people don't mind or didn't notice, but it bothered me to the point where I forebade my players from using Shifters and Warforged in my Realms games.

3) Moving the time frame forward 100 years, but giving us nothing for lore or information to work with. Some people see this as a strength, but to me, giving us something with information about major events or maybe a few adventures set in that 100 year period would have been a huge help. The world changed so fundamentally, but there was no view of how that really affected anyone.

4) The nerfing of the Chosen and so many of the iconic Realms characters. Again, some people like this because now they don't have to think about how such powerful characters might affect their game. The simplest way I found was to not use them, or just have them show up during between-adventure downtime, and then just for a cameo. It's not that hard. Taking away all these iconic characters, and reducing the Chosen in power takes something away from the magic that is the Realms. I'd have rather seen more of the gods create Chosen, now that Mystra no longer has the monopoly on it.

Some things I really like about 4e Realms, and hope they keep, just to be fair:

1) I love the new undead country of Thay. I think this is something that was coming, whether there was an edition change or not. The intrigue that this can create is amazing.

2) Returned Abeir could be so much better than it became, if only WotC had shown it some love and support. Unfortunately, that didn't happen, but it did give DM's a new place to play around in the Realms.
Excellent, we can get the Realms back to what they are.
A setting for a small number of authors to put their (wildly popular) flagship characters in, and for their fan bois and grrls to play in.
Nothing wrong with that. 

Before Greenwood sold the rights, the Realms were a bit different... since then, the owners and originator have taken liberties sinister and dexterous. Some weren't horri-bad, from an internal consistency stance... others were somewhat setting shattering. The Time of Troubles were somewhat important on several levels... then the Spell Plague and associated events turned the place inside out. 
At this point there is a joke... for every new edition of D&D, the Realms must die and be reborn. Mystra must die and be reborn to justify the changes to the magic system. 
If this continues through to 7th edition, it'll get a little too tropish.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
.. since then, the owners and originator have taken liberties sinister and dexterous.

Tee hee hee hee Cool

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)

Unless it is the proverbial second coming I don't care. Moved on from the Realms and use Golarion/Mystara.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

Coukd I keep fhe Realms the way they look now? I dont want to see Egypt and Mexico return to tge Realms.



My only problem is that some of the places that now exist that didn't (imaskar, for one) before are now some of my favorite places.

But yeah, I'd rather Returned Abeir get more page space than see Matzica return. RA was a pretty interesting place, with some really engaging struggles and power dynamics going on.

of course, some of the places that are gone can't come back, which sucks. Like that artificer friendly place that sank into the sea, and...gah...the halfling place. wow, my memory sucks tonight.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
They said there focus is going to be the Heartlands, so its highly unlikely we will see anything in relation to Mexico/Egypt for a long time ... and even then, its such a small insignificant part of what makes the Realms the Realms that it shouldn't matter much.

Their intent is to right the realms... Salvatore and Greenwood said it themselves that 4E turned their world upside down, destroying/killing much of what made the Realms the Realms, such as 99% of the human characters, gods, and some locations... so yes, the Realms will likely look different then 4E Realms.

In fact Salvatore told WOTC himself don't do this, when they were going to introduce 4E Realms and in the mean time has been planning the Sundering for years, this isn't something that they pulled out of their hat at the last minute. Salvatore/Greenwood knew there would be allot of uproar from the FR fans and the Sundering was going to be their answer.

Its not to say that 4E Realms was all bad, but there are significant issues with it that need fixing.




This post made me realize two things, that may inform my arguments with other realms fans on the internet.

1. People care what Salvatore thinks about things.
2. I want him to never influence the Realms or any other property I enjoy ever again, in literally even the smallest way, ever.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Side question.

If they indeed split the worlds again, would there also be intrest in a later campign setting suplement that looks at the other side ?

so you have the standard forgotten realms torill setting.
And a abhir suplement describing what happend from their point of view and alouwing you to adventure there? 
Seems to me that if what they wanted for 4e was an apocalyptic wasteland, they already had Dark Sun. Why blast the FR for it? That was like deciding your network needs a gritty cop drama, so you set fire to Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Bad writing. Hopefully they can undo the damage.



lol apocalyptic wasteland?

did you even read the 4e FR books and articles, or just skim and/or read forum posts about them?

4e FR isn't apocalyptic or a wasteland.

At all.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Meh, like there weren't three hammers taken to it already. At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.



lol seriously.

Also, Elminsters stories since the spell plague...well,

That those two were up in arms about the 4e changes to the Realms is all I need to know about it, to know they were a step in the right direction. 



What I find interesting is that these two authors have made some of their best stories since the Spellplague was planned. Driz'zt and Elminster actually progressed as characters, and were actually challenged for the first time in a while.  



This.

I may have to pick up the newer Driztle books sometime. I haven't liked anything Salvatore has written since the Cleric Quintet, though, so I doubt I'll agree. :P

I'd rather have Kemp and de Bie have some influence on the future of the Realms. Let Salvatore work on his non FR stories. I hear those don't suck.


Seems to me that if what they wanted for 4e was an apocalyptic wasteland, they already had Dark Sun. Why blast the FR for it? That was like deciding your network needs a gritty cop drama, so you set fire to Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Bad writing. Hopefully they can undo the damage.



That's not nearly the scope the changes actually made. Neverwinter looks relatively the same, Baldur's Gate looks the same. Waterdeep looks the same. Calimport/Calimshan looks the same. Cormyr looks the same. Sembia looks the same. The Moonsea looks roughly the same, minus Zhentil Keep. The Anauroch desert looks a bit more fertile yet the dimensions are the same. Silverymoon and other areas of Lurar look the same. Mithral Hall and the The North along with Oboulds Kingdom look the same. The Lake of Steam and the Border Kingdoms remain largely intact. Aglarond and Rasheman look about the same. Huge areas of the Underdark were practically untouched. Most of the Western Heartlands remained untouched. Impiltur, Damara, and Vaasa all appear close to their former selves despite the lowered depth of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Yea......not exactly an apocalytic wasteland in the least. Yes, there are areas where the Spellplague hit harder so Halruaa is gone along with a good portion of the Vilhon Reach. Mulhorand and Maztica were replaced with other parts of Abeir. And the great Chasim runs though a portion of the southlands. To me, none of these areas are remotely popular or areas of great attention in the overall setting. Novels aren't written about these palces. They were barely touched by supplements. No video game even sported people FROM these places. How many NPCs can you name that are from Chult? Or the Shaar? Or Estagund? I bet you couldn't even locate Thindol if you weren't given a map. 

Other aspects, such as Chosen and their epic-ness, well these have been problems people have been complaining about for a long while now (people both who hate and still love the Realms) and I'm glad they got knocked down a peg or 50. This was a good thing IMO. It gave some relevance to my mid- to high-level PCs. My biggest complaint about these uber-NPCs was that they were fully statted out, thus making them little better than things to throw at your PCs later down the road. Do we NEED Drizzt's stats? Or Elminsters? Or what the mechanics are of being a Chosen? Couldn't this have been left up to DM interpretation? Did these need codified rules? No, not really yet there they were, mucking up my FRCS.

Last, the rules for 4E in no way what-so-ever invalidated the pre-4E Realms, the Weave, or Mystra. Mystra didn't need to be killed and the Weave destroyed to incorporate 4E mechanics. Some people think this is true, but it's not. The edition change was believed to be a good time to shake things up in an attempt to gain more FR fans at the cost of some of the die-hard fans. Obviously the gambled in part failed (regardless if I thought it was a success). But it really had little to do with ushering in the 4E Rules under the FR roof and more of an attempt to get new fans interested into a setting with other 30+ years of hard-coded Canon shoved into the setting. I don't know how successful they were in bringing in new people to the setting with the less is more approach to the Canon nor, frankly, do I care. It's apparently important to some people however.

All I can hope for is that the Sundering doesn't mess up what we've all experienced thus far and that the Realms continues FORWARD instead of looking back.



This. All of it. Quoted in full because it deserves it.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
wait did someone just say Mystra was back?


when did that happen? 

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

wait did someone just say Mystra was back?


when did that happen? 

Mystra returned to the Forgotten Realms in 1479 DR. A vestige of Mystra had survived her death in 1385 DR, and was guiding her Chosen to aid in her renewal. The Simbul was tasked to close multiple rifts in the Weave and between realms. In doing this task, she absorbed much Silverfire and Blue Flame. The Simbul gifted all of that energy to Elminster, who in turn freely returned it to Mystra in a cave within the King's Forest of Cormyr. This new Mystra was a combination of the memories of Mystra and Midnight/Mystra, and presumably of Mystryl as she had drawn her memories from the Weave rather than from personal experience.

Mystra's return was highlighted as part of the D&D Encounters: War of Everlasting Darkness. She assisted the adventurers in defeating Lolth and her efforts to plunge Faerun into everlasting darkness, which would have allowed the drow to invade and conquer the surface realms.


Wikipedia

Danny

Meh, like there weren't three hammers taken to it already. At least the 4E Realms actually accomplished a world-shaping turmoil that wasn't a two-bit novelist's self-gratification exercise.



I'm confused, are you a Forgotten Realms fan whatsoever? or are you just a 4E fanboy here to insult the novelists who made the world?

Anyways, yes there has been cataclysms in the past, but nothing to the extent of 4E Realms where everything was literely wiped out and replaced by... well, not much, there is very little 4E lore — and that's the biggest problem in my view, skip 100 years and leave everything blank ... what's the point? may as well just create my own world.



Pretty funny, considering I've likely been playing D&D longer than you have.

The novelists have been the Realms' biggest weakness as well, the worst being the utterly moronic Time Of Troubles. "Oooo the Gods will spend a year hobknobbing on the Prime Material Plane rubbing elbows with their chosen followers.' In fact the only thing worse was the incredibly bad kludge ending to the whole thing. "Welcome the new ascending Gods, Kelemvor, Cyric and Mi....(pssst, Mystra's Chosen, dude!)....Mystra (Mark II or whatever)." Seriously, did the gods just get celestial t-shirts printed that say "I Killed Mystra Too"?

As For Salvatore and Greenwood, post-Spellplague is the first time in over a decade Elminster and Drizzt Do'Cullen have shown even a modicum of character growth. The writers actually had to think rather than churning out another same-old-same-old storyline. Too bad the ending of Salvatore's last book was an utter kludge also.