[M14 Spoiler] Chandra's Ultimate

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-7 Exile the top 10 cards from your Library.  Choose a Sorcery or Instant exiled this way and copy it three times. You may cast the copies without paying their mana cost.

Now, let's see if I understand this. Let us say I chose Epic Experiment as the spell to make three copies of, and I choose to pay for the cost, instead of playing them for free.

a) Am I allowed to do that?
b) Assuming I am, do I have to pay for each one, or does paying for it pay the cost for each copy?
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You're not allowed to do that. Chandra's ability only offers you two choices for each copy:


  • Cast it without paying its cost

  • Don't cast it at all 

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Okay, so let's ask the bonehead question. Why? It tells me to make copies. It does not say anywhere I can't be paying for them. It say I may cast them without paying, but that line of text is *after* I have already made copies.

So why can't I pay for the copies?
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Okay, so let's ask the bonehead question. Why? It tells me to make copies. It does not say anywhere I can't be paying for them. It say I may cast them without paying, but that line of text is *after* I have already made copies.

So why can't I pay for the copies?



It makes copies of exiled cards. Therefore, the copies are created in the exile zone.


Then the ability lets you cast those copies (move from exile to the stack) without paying their mana cost. If you don't cast them this way, the copies stay exiled (and will cease to exist shortly after).


You can't cast them the normal way because they aren't cards in your hand. The "cast them {from exile} without paying the mana cost" option is the only one you have, and you must follow it fully.

[<o>]
Chandra's activated ability is in the middle of resolving. You can't cast anything while something is resolving unless the thing that's resolving instructs you to.

Chandra's activated ability doesn't say you may cast it by paying its mana cost, so you can't.
Chandra's activated ability is in the middle of resolving. You can't cast anything while something is resolving unless the thing that's resolving instructs you to.

Chandra's activated ability doesn't say you may cast it by paying its mana cost, so you can't.

No, that's stupid. Why have You May Cast It Without Paying It's Mana Cost as a line of text at ALL in that case? Why would that be relevant if you already have copies made?
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"You may cast it without paying its mana cost" is what gives you permission to cast it at all. It's relevant because, as will_dice explained, once Chandra's ability finishes resolving, the copies will cease to exist if you haven't cast them.
Chandra's activated ability is in the middle of resolving. You can't cast anything while something is resolving unless the thing that's resolving instructs you to.


Chandra's activated ability doesn't say you may cast it by paying its mana cost, so you can't.


No, that's stupid. Why have You May Cast It Without Paying It's Mana Cost as a line of text at ALL in that case? Why would that be relevant if you already have copies made?


Chandra's ability makes copies of exiled cards. Therefore, the copies are created in the exile zone. You need to cast them to move them to the stack (so they can become spells). Without this line of text, you'd get only exiled copies of exiled cards that would never do anything before ceasing to exist.

[<o>]
Chandra's activated ability is in the middle of resolving. You can't cast anything while something is resolving unless the thing that's resolving instructs you to.

Chandra's activated ability doesn't say you may cast it by paying its mana cost, so you can't.

No, that's stupid. Why have You May Cast It Without Paying It's Mana Cost as a line of text at ALL in that case? Why would that be relevant if you already have copies made?



Because you're not copying spells. You're copying cards. It's exactly like Isochron Scepter.
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I don't understand how copying an instant isn not playing it. This makes no sense to me.

(Please, do a little work to help prove your point. Point to me the releveant rules sections, because you're going to go around in circles with me until I see relevent rules.)
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Creating a copy of an object creates a copy of the object in its current zone. Nothing more or less.

In the case of things like Reverberate, this creates copies on the stack, because it's copying something on the stack. However, these copies aren't cast, because to cast something means to put it on the stack.

In the case of things like Isochron Scepter, this creates copies in the exile zone, where you have no way of casting them unless the effect that creates the copy gives you permission to do so, and where they cease to exist the next time state-based actions are checked.

706. Copying Objects
I don't understand how copying an instant isn not playing it. This makes no sense to me.

Copying has never been synonymous with playing. Ever. Copying is only the action of "make more of this in the zone where it is". Casting is only the action of "move this from where it is to the stack and turn it into a spell". So in order to get your extra experiments, we have to first copy and then cast.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Astareal7, you have not been playing as long as I have. At one time, it was.

The relevant rule is 706.10a... which didn't exist, mind you, probably for a long time. It used to be copying any spell would be *on* the stack.

... and now I have to wonder why 706.10a even exists, but there you go. I'm fine being wrong, but I don't understand why this rule exists.
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That's not the right rule. Spells only exist on the stack; the cards Chandra is copying are in the exile zone, so 706.10a doesn't apply to them. 706.12 is the one that's relevant here.

For the last time on this thread, you aren't copying any spell here. You're copying an exiled card, then casting said copy.



Read the card correctly:


-7 Exile the top 10 cards from your Library.  Choose a Sorcery or Instant exiled this way and copy it three times. You may cast the copies without paying their mana cost.

 

The actual text says "choose a sorcery or instant card exiled this way". It's not a spell.



706.12. An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then cast while another spell or ability is resolving. Casting a copy of an object follows steps 601.2a-g of rule 601, "Casting Spells," and then the copy becomes cast. Once cast, the copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it can resolve or be countered.

[<o>]
Astareal7, you have not been playing as long as I have. At one time, it was.

The relevant rule is 706.10a... which didn't exist, mind you, probably for a long time. It used to be copying any spell would be *on* the stack.

... and now I have to wonder why 706.10a even exists, but there you go. I'm fine being wrong, but I don't understand why this rule exists.

The original text of Fork clearly indicates that the original action of copying didn't include playing the copy anew (Fork became the copy). Isochron Scepter, Panoptic Mirror and Reversal of Fortune were the first cards to cause cards to become copied and all three of them seperately direct the cards to be played.

EDIT: Also, I've been playing since Invasion. So my experience with the game also predates the modern copy rules.

EDIT2: Also Spellbinder

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Astareal7, you have not been playing as long as I have. At one time, it was.

The relevant rule is 706.10a... which didn't exist, mind you, probably for a long time. It used to be copying any spell would be *on* the stack.

... and now I have to wonder why 706.10a even exists, but there you go. I'm fine being wrong, but I don't understand why this rule exists.



No, copying a spell has never been synonymous with casting it. Nothing that triggered on casting a spell has ever triggered on copying it. You may have been under the impression that it did, but you would be wrong.
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For the last time on this thread, you aren't copying any spell here. You're copying an exiled card, then casting said copy.



Read the card correctly:


-7 Exile the top 10 cards from your Library.  Choose a Sorcery or Instant exiled this way and copy it three times. You may cast the copies without paying their mana cost.

 

The actual text says "choose a sorcery or instant card exiled this way". It's not a spell.



706.12. An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then cast while another spell or ability is resolving. Casting a copy of an object follows steps 601.2a-g of rule 601, "Casting Spells," and then the copy becomes cast. Once cast, the copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it can resolve or be countered.


No it's not, for the card doesn't actually tell you to cast it, and until 10a, the assumption was that copied spells (which this would have been pre m10 rule change, I think) went on the stack. Which, apparently, they do not now.

If .12 was the right rule, then the second sentence would have told me to cast the three copies. It does not.

10a is the relevent text, for it defines what happens to spells outside the stack. "If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist."
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For the last time on this thread, you aren't copying any spell here. You're copying an exiled card, then casting said copy.



Read the card correctly:


-7 Exile the top 10 cards from your Library.  Choose a Sorcery or Instant exiled this way and copy it three times. You may cast the copies without paying their mana cost.

 

The actual text says "choose a sorcery or instant card exiled this way". It's not a spell.



706.12. An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then cast while another spell or ability is resolving. Casting a copy of an object follows steps 601.2a-g of rule 601, "Casting Spells," and then the copy becomes cast. Once cast, the copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it can resolve or be countered.


No it's not, for the card doesn't actually tell you to cast it, and until 10a, the assumption was that copied spells (which this would have been pre m10 rule change, I think) went on the stack. Which, apparently, they do not now.

If .12 was the right rule, then the second sentence would have told me to cast the three copies. It does not.

10a is the relevent text, for it defines what happens to spells outside the stack. "If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist."



A spell copied by Twincast will be copied on the stack.  A card copied by this new card or Panoptic Mirror is copied wherever the original is (exile zone in this case).

This isn't anything new.

For the last time on this thread, you aren't copying any spell here. You're copying an exiled card, then casting said copy.



Read the card correctly:


-7 Exile the top 10 cards from your Library.  Choose a Sorcery or Instant exiled this way and copy it three times. You may cast the copies without paying their mana cost.

 

The actual text says "choose a sorcery or instant card exiled this way". It's not a spell.



706.12. An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then cast while another spell or ability is resolving. Casting a copy of an object follows steps 601.2a-g of rule 601, "Casting Spells," and then the copy becomes cast. Once cast, the copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it can resolve or be countered.


No it's not, for the card doesn't actually tell you to cast it, and until 10a, the assumption was that copied spells (which this would have been pre m10 rule change, I think) went on the stack. Which, apparently, they do not now.

If .12 was the right rule, then the second sentence would have told me to cast the three copies. It does not.

10a is the relevent text, for it defines what happens to spells outside the stack. "If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist."



Okay, no. This card does tell you to cast it. And no, it is not copying spells. And no, before M10, this would not have been considered that; this works exactly like Isochron Scepter. You are not copying the spell; you are copying the card and then casting that card-copy as a spell. And copying cards has never put them directly on the stack; the only copies created directly on the stack are copies of spells.
 
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Also, how can you say it doesn't tell you to cast the cards when the last sentence very explicitly tells you that you may cast the cards? It even says the word "cast."
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Chandra does not copy spells
Chandra copies instant and sorcery cards that are in the exile zone. Normally, you can't cast spells from the exile zone (especially while something's resolving), so Chandra needs to give you permission to do so. The permission she gives is
"You may cast them without paying their mana costs"

I didn't get to respond to your earlier question:
So why can't I pay for the copies?

Because the card says you can't.

Is there anything else you don't understand about this card/ability/rule? 

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

To be clear. I accept the general concensus that I can't 'cast' the copies paying it's mana cost.

The Word May is a permission word. May means you are allowed to do something. The assumption is that if I may cast the spells without paying it's mana cost, then I *should* be allowed to play them by paying their mana cost.

Obviously, at this point in discussion, we agree that we can not pay one cost and get three Epic Experiments. However, that aside, why *can't* I cast any of these spells using it's mana cost if I desired to. Why is the relevant text in the third line "Without paying their mana cost". Why does the Permission May disappear? I don't comprehend that part, because it clearly tells me I can cast the spells. Why does the spell care if I pay for it or not?
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Also, how can you say it doesn't tell you to cast the cards when the last sentence very explicitly tells you that you may cast the cards? It even says the word "cast."

I would love to know that, but apparently I have to be wrong when I say it.
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To be clear. I accept the general concensus that I can't 'cast' the copies paying it's mana cost.

The Word May is a permission word. May means you are allowed to do something. The assumption is that if I may cast the spells without paying it's mana cost, then I *should* be allowed to play them by paying their mana cost.

Obviously, at this point in discussion, we agree that we can not pay one cost and get three Epic Experiments. However, that aside, why *can't* I cast any of these spells using it's mana cost if I desired to. Why is the relevant text in the third line "Without paying their mana cost". Why does the Permission May disappear? I don't comprehend that part, because it clearly tells me I can cast the spells. Why does the spell care if I pay for it or not?



The permisison is "may cast them without paying mana cost"
If the permission is removed, there is nothing allowing you to cast them at all.  You can't apply the permission selectively to just the casting part.
To be clear. I accept the general concensus that I can't 'cast' the copies paying it's mana cost. 

The Word May is a permission word. May means you are allowed to do something. The assumption is that if I may cast the spells without paying it's mana cost, then I *should* be allowed to play them by paying their mana cost. 

Obviously, at this point in discussion, we agree that we can not pay one cost and get three Epic Experiments. However, that aside, why *can't* I cast any of these spells using it's mana cost if I desired to. Why is the relevant text in the third line "Without paying their mana cost". Why does the Permission May disappear? I don't comprehend that part, because it clearly tells me I can cast the spells. Why does the spell care if I pay for it or not?

What ability is giving you permission to cast the copies from the exile zone by paying their mana costs? (Actual answer: there isn't one.)

For that matter, what ability is preventing the copies from disappearing before you have the opportunity to cast them? (Actual answer: there isn't one.)

EDIT: "May" in Magic means "you have the option of performing the action that is here described by following completely all of the directions in this ability, or else you can opt to do nothing." It does not mean "you have the option of doing some of what is here described but not the rest of it, divided as you see fit."

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Rudolf: That doesn't make sense, though. It tells me I can cast them. Why is the last part relevent in the cast? Why would I need permisision to spend mana casting spells,

Astaraerl, If the spells disappear before I  cast them before paying for them, why does line three exist at all? You have to complete every sentence in a process, correct?

(Edit: Thank you for that clarification, but that leads to this furthermore)

Furthermore, why doesn't the second sentence tell me to cast three copies, which would make this WHOLE THING much easier to comprehend.
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Astaraerl, If the spells disappear before I  cast them before paying for them, why does line three exist at all? You have to complete every sentence in a process, correct?

(Edit: Thank you for that clarification, but that leads to this furthermore)

Furthermore, why doesn't the second sentence tell me to cast three copies, which would make this WHOLE THING much easier to comprehend.

The third sentence does tell you to cast the copies. Additionally, while the copies would be erased as an SBA, SBA's aren't checked while spells and abilities are resolving. So the copies are perfectly happy to keep existing in the exile zone for the entire time it takes you to move from the second sentence to the third sentence.

EDIT: To be clear, you also can't cast spells during the resolution of a spell or ability unless the spell or ability tells you to do so. So you can't cast the copies during the ability except without paying their mana cost and you can't cast them after the ability because 1) you don't have permission to do so and 2) they'll cease to exist as an SBA before anyone receives priority anyway.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Kensan, seriously, you're just being stubborn to be stubborn.

The permission is not 'You may cast the copies.' The permission is 'You may cast the copies without paying their mana costs.' That whole sentence is the permission; if you choose to do any of it, you do all of it. The reason the 'last part' has to do with the casting of them is because the last part is part of the permission letting you cast them. 
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Rudolf: That doesn't make sense, though. It tells me I can cast them.

No, it doesn't! It tells you you can cast them without paying their mana costs. That's a big difference.  You can't just ignore whatever text you want on cards. They aren't religious texts up for interpretation.
Astaraerl, If the spells disappear before I  cast them before paying for them, why does line three exist at all? You have to complete every sentence in a process, correct?

1) You can't cast spells while something is resolving.
2) You can't cast copies of cards (because they never exist at any time you have priority)
3) You can't cast cards from exile.

Chandra lets you bypass ALL THREE of these restrictions. She lets you bypass restriction 1 because she explicitly tells you to cast them. She lets you bypass 2 because you're casting the copies before they disappear (ie you cast them in the middle of Chandra's ability resolving), and she lets you bypass 3 because "them" refers to "the exiled copies." The "without paying their mana cost" didn't have to be there.

Compare Chandra's ability to Grinning Totem, which is exactly the same thing, but doesn't contain "without paying its mana cost." That part has nothing to do with casting permissions., it's just a caveat of the ability. 

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

I accept the logic.

I just don't understand why it's worded they way it is, though. Why do we need three sentences to accomplish what two would have done? Is there somewhere I can go to ask about that?
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I accept the logic.

I just don't understand why it's worded they way it is, though. Why do we need three sentences to accomplish what two would have done? Is there somewhere I can go to ask about that?


What part of that ability is unnecessary? How would you word it?

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

I accept the logic.

I just don't understand why it's worded they way it is, though. Why do we need three sentences to accomplish what two would have done? Is there somewhere I can go to ask about that?

I answered this in my edit, but we need three sentences because without the third sentence giving you the option of casting the copies, you wouldn't be able to cast them at all.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

What sentence do you think is unnecessary?
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Compare Chandra's ability to Grinning Totem, which is exactly the same thing, but doesn't contain "without paying its mana cost." That part has nothing to do with casting permissions., it's just a caveat of the ability. 



Are you sure that's the card you meant? It's entirely different from Chandra.
Are you sure the correct autocard is coming up for you? Get a card, exile it, you may cast it. Exactly the same except with the noted difference of not having "without paying its mana cost" (and also that you can cast it anytime that turn, rather than being forced to cast it immediately)

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

What sentence do you think is unnecessary?

Not sentence. Paragraph. The Paragraph, the way it was worded, is what led me to believe the way I did.  I would reword it as such.

"Exile the top 10 cards of your library. You may choose one instant and sorcery exiled this way and cast three copies of that spell without paying it's casting cost."

By merging the two sentences, it becomes clearer what you are ment to do. By seperating the clauses into two sentences, it gives a less rules savvy player the impression that they had a choice to actually cast the spell choosen, and it was optional to cast it without paying it's cost.

Magic is complicated enough. Creating narrative sentences would help.
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Rules Theory and Templating is the place to offer suggestions for new rules templating.
"Exile the top 10 cards of your library. You may choose one instant and sorcery exiled this way and cast three copies of that spell without paying it's casting cost."

Technically speaking, this ability doesn't work. The copies that the ability asks you to cast have to be created by a "copy" keyword action first. I doubt that anyone would actually notice (except in the RT&T thread after a couple of years) but that is how the rules have been constructed. As for narrative sentences, the current wording of the ability has a very natural flow to it: "Do a thing. Pick part of the result and do something else to it. Do a third thing," connects the things that logically belong together (the selecting and the copying) while using sentence breaks to sequence the actions. I don't see what's "unnarrative" about that.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Are you sure the correct autocard is coming up for you? Get a card, exile it, you may cast it. Exactly the same except with the noted difference of not having "without paying its mana cost" (and also that you can cast it anytime that turn, rather than being forced to cast it immediately)



That parenthetical is what I mean. Chandra creates copies and then has the optional instruction of immediately casting those copies, and if you don't take that chance, they cease to exist. The Totem instead sets up a temporary permission that you can cast that card from exile, while still needing to follow all the timing rules for casting that card. In the context of this thread, the difference is quite significant, and they certainly aren't "exactly the same thing".
"Exile the top 10 cards of your library. You may choose one instant and sorcery exiled this way and cast three copies of that spell without paying it's casting cost."

Technically speaking, this ability doesn't work. The copies that the ability asks you to cast have to be created by a "copy" keyword action first. I doubt that anyone would actually notice (except in the RT&T thread after a couple of years) but that is how the rules have been constructed. As for narrative sentences, the current wording of the ability has a very natural flow to it: "Do a thing. Pick part of the result and do something else to it. Do a third thing," connects the things that logically belong together (the selecting and the copying) while using sentence breaks to sequence the actions. I don't see what's "unnarrative" about that.

It seperates two actions.

"Maya walked and opened a window.

"Maya walked. Maya opened up a window."

In one, we 'see' her walk over and open the window. In the other, she walks... somewhere. She opens a window as a unconnected event.  By seperating the joining of actions, you break narrative into flat statements.
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