## Solution for Spiked Shield

So, after reading quite a few threads here and there... spiked shield is coming up as what people call a "problem".  In 3.5 edition I had a character that dual weilded spiked sheilds: for thematic reasons, he was not optimized to get benefits from it.  I've often taken them, and like the idea, but obviously the way the rules are now its not working well for people:

I'm surprised to see that no one (AFAIK) is suggesting the one thing that keeps it balanced...

*if you attack with a shield, you loose the AC bonus until your next turn.  Boom.. we are done here.

Why doesn't this fix everything that is wrong with it, keeping everything that is right?

I had come to actually post that it was broken in another way: it looks like a regular shield is 10gp, and a spiked shield is 8gp... so the price is weird, it looks like you get a sheild with spikes on it for 8gp the way its written.
I'm surprised to see that no one (AFAIK) is suggesting the one thing that keeps it balanced...

*if you attack with a shield, you loose the AC bonus until your next turn.  Boom.. we are done here.

Why doesn't this fix everything that is wrong with it, keeping everything that is right?

This 'solution' has been proposed numerous times, though it seems that the main contributors to the conversation commonly agree that it is both inelegant and undesired.

Managing AC round-by-round adds a layer of complexity that adjusting the spiked shield's properties would otherwise avoid.

Danny

Managing AC round-by-round adds a layer of complexity that adjusting the spiked shield's properties would otherwise avoid.

But the solutions I have seen, are to either lower the ac- which makes little sense and becomes a mess of arguments about balance and feats and effectiveness

Is managing a -2AC change all that difficult?  I cannot see it being any harder than any other soultion.

1. You cannot just NOT have it... it doesn't make sense and its limiting to say 'spiked shields just don't exsist".

2.  Lowering all shields to 1 AC to fix it, seems terriblly heavy handed.  Furthermore, making spiked shields have less ac than a normal shield falls into place as being 'unrealistic'.  Why can't I just put some spikes on a real shield?

Occams Razor-  Often the simpliest solution is the easiest.   But what is the simpliest solution to making a spike sheild not be the BEST offhand weapon right now?  Or is that really the problem we are trying to solve...

If you put back in the "using a shield as a weapon makes you loose the AC bonus" and also put in a feat which allows you to use it as a weapon and not loose the AC- then it becomes balanced and all things become right in the world.   Because it costs the investment of a feat to use it as it can be used now, it removes it as the marginally better option than all other options: and doesn't fundamentally alter the game or change reality.

In 3.5 edition, I hardly ever saw people take the sword and board approach after a few levels into the game, fighters just dropped the sword for the 2H weapon, or 2 weapons because they wanted more dmg.   I felt like we could have done more to make shields relevant, and a sexy option.  right now I really like the direction that a shield wielding fighter has, but from the perspective of a DM: I like the idea of a group of monsters fighting in phalanx, it really becomes a hard nut to crack if you have 4-5 tough orcs or other bad guys blocking a passage this way and having some of those shield feats.
jaelis
Joined Dec 1969
I think that Next is aiming to make shields more relevant, with feats and fighter abilities that let you do special things. But also, 2H and TWF damage is toned down compared to what it was in 3e (due to the removal of the extra +0.5 Str). I think all those things make sword and board more competetive.

I guess that I don't share your concern about modifying the spiked shield to a spiked buckler that does +1 AC. I'm fine saying that you can put spikes on a bigger shield, but it is too big and awkward to attack with it in general.

You could play it like 3e where you lose the shield bonus when you attack with it, but personally I didn't have a great experience with that kind of thing in 3e. Pretty much everyone I played with who had an option like that (power attack, combat expertise) pretty quickly just picked a default configuration (power attack at -2) and stuck with it. Maybe your experience was different.
raleel
Joined Dec 1969
Speaking for my own group, and my own not-short experience, taking away AC on a round you use it is amazingly hard to track. it will be forgotten all the time. I saw it in 4e all the flipping time. Effectively you are making a "shieldless" condition, and tracking conditions makes things more complicated. We had a whole set of pipecleaners wrapped into rings to track conditions... AND WE STILL FORGOT THEM.

Game before last, I had some gnolls out with longbows. They had ac 15. I neglected to consider that included their shield, which they were using. I did it for 2 hours. I ALMOST did it again this last game.

The simplest solution is to reset it's point to where it is balanced with other weapons and to not make a lot of special rules for it that have to be tracked. It makes sense (historical spiked shields tended to be smaller), and it has a defined condition across the board.

I like very much that Next appears to be trying to make shields more relevant. Last major D&D character was a flail and shield guy I like them very much and feel that they've been shoved under the rug.
You have to manage your AC from one round to the next if you use ranged weapons and shields anyway.

My problem with this proposed solution is that spiked shield remains strictly better than any other off hand weapon.  Given two fighters, one with a sword and spiked shield and one with a longsword and shortsword, the one with the shield gets to choose to raise or lower his AC from one round to the next while the other does not.  He gains a defensive option at no cost.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
You have to manage your AC from one round to the next if you use ranged weapons and shields anyway.

I'm inclined to call shennanigans on that one. It's legal by RAW, sure, but it's a particularly gamist approach that I would actively discourage at my table.

Donning a shield should take 1 action.

Danny

You have to manage your AC from one round to the next if you use ranged weapons and shields anyway.

I'm inclined to call shennanigans on that one. It's legal by RAW, sure, but it's a particularly gamist approach that I would actively discourage at my table.

Donning a shield should take 1 action.

I'm inclined to aggree. But as you say - the rules allow it. I'd tend to lump the problem in with the move and action concept that's currently in the rules. You have a move and an action... So you can move your full allowance and then still perform one defined action. If you choose NOT to move then you still get only one action. But you CAN move and then MOVE AGAIN as an action - 'do the hustle'. Given the current RAW I'd be inclined to allow a character to drop a bow and draw a weapon and unsling a shield as part of the move action. If they wanted to actually put the bow away, draw a weapon and unsling the shield - then they're going to have to sacrifice movement or action.

I'd still vote for the "adjustment to armor class" depending on whether a shield is used as a weapon or as defense. There's lots of things to remember now - like resistance to damage types - that sometimes get missed. It's up to the DM and/or the players to keep track of this stuff. Rings, markers, dice next to the player's icon on the table - all can serve as reminders.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
24695 Posts
1d4 damage,  +1 AC.

It fits well with the current math.  And you don't need to adjust it round by round.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

1d4 damage,  +1 AC.

It fits well with the current math.  And you don't need to adjust it round by round.

This.

Danny

1d4 damage,  +1 AC.

It fits well with the current math.  And you don't need to adjust it round by round.

I can't get around it not being the same as a regular shiled's armor (+2).   Its a martial weapon, and requires you to be proficient in sheilds: it already has a high requirement in skill to use it, why not let it just be the best option.  Something has to be the best option.

I can't get around it not being the same as a regular shiled's armor (+2).   Its a martial weapon, and requires you to be proficient in sheilds: it already has a high requirement in skill to use it, why not let it just be the best option.  Something has to be the best option.

It's the best shield option, it's the best two-weapon fighting option, it's the best light weapon option... the issues presented by the spiked shield are both multitudinous and compounded.

And some argue that you do not need to be proficient with shields if you are proficient with the spiked shield because it is a weapon that functions as a shield, not a shield in and of itself.

Danny

1d4 damage,  +1 AC.

It fits well with the current math.  And you don't need to adjust it round by round.

I'd be happy with this as well. Just not AS happy.
Shiroiken
Joined Mar 2008
1524 Posts
I can't get around it not being the same as a regular shiled's armor (+2).

You simply have 2 Shields: Light and Heavy. Light Shields provide +1 AC and can be used as a weapon for 1d4 Damage (spikes optional). Heavy Shields provide +2 AC, but are too unwieldy to be used as weapon (possibly used as improvised weapon).

Its a martial weapon, and requires you to be proficient in sheilds: it already has a high requirement in skill to use it, why not let it just be the best option.  Something has to be the best option.

So far they've been trying to keep "the best option" as a matter of preference. I like AC (and think 1 AC is worth more than 1 Damage), but others think that Damage is more important. This (and the Urgosh) are just too strong, as they break the basic math they've set for all other weapons. Unless it is changed (along with the Urgosh), there is no reason to use any other fighting style, unless you don't have the proficiency.
So really the problem is 2H weapons are not longer the mega dmg dealers they used to be.  And you can still get full on defense bonuses without any penalty while TWF with a spiked shield.

the Spiked SHield is not the problem, the Other stuff is the problem.   They made TWF the best option hands down, because the other options are not as good...

So really the problem is 2H weapons are not longer the mega dmg dealers they used to be.  And you can still get full on defense bonuses without any penalty while TWF with a spiked shield.

the Spiked SHield is not the problem, the Other stuff is the problem.   They made TWF the best option hands down, because the other options are not as good...

It has been demonstrated that 2H outpaces TWF in the damage department, that the fighting styles are largely comparable, and that the only disruptive aspect of the equation is the spiked shield.

All of the numerous threads on the subject need to be factored in for full context regarding the issues being discussed.

Danny

Shiroiken
Joined Mar 2008
1524 Posts
So really the problem is 2H weapons are not longer the mega dmg dealers they used to be.  And you can still get full on defense bonuses without any penalty while TWF with a spiked shield.

the Spiked SHield is not the problem, the Other stuff is the problem.   They made TWF the best option hands down, because the other options are not as good...

Then how do you feel about the fact that sword and board is useless? You get +2 AC and deal ~4.5 Damage before modifiers. With the spiked shield, you get +2 AC and deal ~7 Damage before modifiers. Even if you made THF better than TWF, you've killed one of the three fighting styles. Anything you can do to make sword and board better automatically makes the spiked shield better, so there's no real fix other than taking down the spiked shield to fit in line with the regular math.
Maybe we could look towards reality as a jumping off point for re-working the 'spiked shield' concept...

First - any shield could be and WAS used a weapon in various fighting styles. The Greek Hoplite used his large, heavy round bronze shield in a variety of attack manuvers - Vikings used their large round wood and leather shields to batter opponent's weapons out of the way to open up opportunities to attack.

Second - If the spiked shield was so great - why didn't every historical shield sport spikes of every description? Because any sort of bulge or protrusion from a shield made it easier for the enemy to hook or entangle the shield and pull it out of the way. That's why the vast majority of shields are either round, oval or kite shaped. The sloping edges made it harder to catch the shield with a weapon and pull or push it out of position.

So if we look to reality for a solution then two suggestions already made jump out as logical.

1. For the Spiked Shield only.

Let the spiked shield only grant AC+1 and let it do 1d4 lethal/piercing damage(dagger on a board). It's less effective as a shield but more effective as a weapon.

2. For normal shields.

If the character has some form of two weapon fighting ablitiy... let the player declare whether the shield will be used as a weapon or as armour.
If used for a second attack you lose the +2 to your armour class granted by having a shield and gain 1 attack at 1d6 bludgoning damage.

Just my 2 cents.

jaelis
Joined Dec 1969

1. For the Spiked Shield only.

Let the spiked shield only grant AC+1 and let it do 1d4 lethal/piercing damage(dagger on a board). It's less effective as a shield but more effective as a weapon.

2. For normal shields.

If the character has some form of two weapon fighting ablitiy... let the player declare whether the shield will be used as a weapon or as armour.
If used for a second attack you lose the +2 to your armour class granted by having a shield and gain 1 attack at 1d6 bludgoning damage.

Another approach giving a similar result would be to use a spiked buckler like you say, but then for a normal shield rely on feats and class abilities to represent your skill in using it offensively while maintaining its defensive advantage.

You mentioned realism, and I'm no expert, but I recall people who've claimed to be experts agree that you certainly can use a big shield offensively, but not that it particularly reduces it's defensive capabilities.

Also, I thought this was interesting about the spiked buckler, if you haven't seen it: www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBucklerP3...
The simple solution to me: two kinds of shield, light (+1 AC), and heavy (+2 AC), and I'd also like to see tower shields that are even better but extremely cumbersome, but that's another topic.

Light shield counts as a light weapon, dealing 1d4 on a bash. The heavy shield can deal 1d6, but must be treated as a one-handed weapon.

I don't see why the spikes are even necessary to do that damage. Look at the spartans, their shield was one of their primary weapons, and it didn't have spikes. A shield bash is being slammed with a dense sheet of metal or wood, it can be as damaging as a weapon. The spikes should be an option to change the damage from bludgeoning to piercing.
The simple solution to me: two kinds of shield, light (+1 AC), and heavy (+2 AC), and I'd also like to see tower shields that are even better but extremely cumbersome, but that's another topic.

Light shield counts as a light weapon, dealing 1d4 on a bash. The heavy shield can deal 1d6, but must be treated as a one-handed weapon.

I don't see why the spikes are even necessary to do that damage. Look at the spartans, their shield was one of their primary weapons, and it didn't have spikes. A shield bash is being slammed with a dense sheet of metal or wood, it can be as damaging as a weapon. The spikes should be an option to change the damage from bludgeoning to piercing.

I agree that the spikes aren't necessary.

Also, it would make more sense to flesh out the description of using a shield as a weapon in combat underneath the shield's description in the armor section, as opposed to listing it on the weapon table (which leads to confusion over whether or not you can use it as armor if you're proficient with it as a weapon, but not as armor).

Light Shield +1 AC 7gp 2lb 1d4 bludgeoning light weapon
Shield +2 AC 10gp 5lb 1d6 bludgeoning weapon

Danny

The simple solution to me: two kinds of shield, light (+1 AC), and heavy (+2 AC), and I'd also like to see tower shields that are even better but extremely cumbersome, but that's another topic.

Light shield counts as a light weapon, dealing 1d4 on a bash. The heavy shield can deal 1d6, but must be treated as a one-handed weapon.

I don't see why the spikes are even necessary to do that damage. Look at the spartans, their shield was one of their primary weapons, and it didn't have spikes. A shield bash is being slammed with a dense sheet of metal or wood, it can be as damaging as a weapon. The spikes should be an option to change the damage from bludgeoning to piercing.

In the case of the Greek shield, it was a heavy bronze item, with a fairly sharp edge. There were several strikes used with the shield edge in addition to simple buffets with the front of the shield itself. A lighter shield might not have the mass to do much damage without a sharpened edge or spike.
I've watched re-enactments of battle - and fooled around a little myself. In order to use a shield as a truely effective offensive weapon you have to give up most of the shield's defensive effectiveness for the duration of the attack.

Look at it in the same sense as using a sword. Sure, you can use the sword in a way that your primary focus is parrying the opponent's blow but you're giving up some of your offensive options.

If you wanted to really simulate combat you'd have to develop as system of rules that would be rediculously complex... including written secret orders describing stances and responses and manuvers that would be revealed simultaneously and evaluated by a judge.

All I think that's needed is a simple set of rules that give the flavor of melee combat without bogging down the game with un-necessary complexity.

In response to your specific example... Given the option of being hit in the back with a small light buckler with no spike in the middle and being hit with the same buckler with the spike... I'll take option ONE.

Think garbage can lid vs. butcher knife.
Shiroiken
Joined Mar 2008
1524 Posts
I don't see why the spikes are even necessary to do that damage. Look at the spartans, their shield was one of their primary weapons, and it didn't have spikes. A shield bash is being slammed with a dense sheet of metal or wood, it can be as damaging as a weapon. The spikes should be an option to change the damage from bludgeoning to piercing.

They're not, but some people like the idea of customizing.

No modification: Bludgeoning
Spikes: Piercing
Edged: Slashing
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
24695 Posts
Maybe we could look towards reality as a jumping off point for re-working the 'spiked shield' concept...

First - any shield could be and WAS used a weapon in various fighting styles. The Greek Hoplite used his large, heavy round bronze shield in a variety of attack manuvers - Vikings used their large round wood and leather shields to batter opponent's weapons out of the way to open up opportunities to attack.

Different damge types.

Buckler - 1d4 bashing, +1 AC
Spiked Shield - 1d4 piercing, +1 AC
Razor Shield - 1d4 slashing, +1 AC

Big shield - +2 AC

Tower shield - +3 AC, must use a light weapon.

All the numbers work out really nicely that way.  And you got plenty of options.

Edit: Ninja's.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

raleel
Joined Dec 1969
is the +2AC big shield balanced at 1d6 and use a light weapon in the off hand if you want to attack with it? Seems like it is, except why would you ever go longsword/shortsword?

I think you would need a feat for a big shield to be a weapon.

I like Mellored's option. We used it last game and my tank guy actually was fine with dropping his damage to a d6 light hammer.
I'd leave the regular shield as it was earlier -- 1d4 bludgeon with a +2 AC.  No light or finesse.

A classic sword and board fighter would then just have it as an alternate attack when slashing is less effective than bludgeoning -- like for whacking skeletons 1d8+4 vs 1d4+4 doubled.

You could use it with Dual Weapon and have a light weapon in the main hand but it's borderline.
raleel
Joined Dec 1969
I like the option of it being bludgeon. I'll make sure to put in some skeletons to highlight that.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
24695 Posts
1d4, +2AC, and 1d6 is too strong.
Not unless 2-handers came as 1d14.

Mabey as a feat...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

jaelis
Joined Dec 1969
1d4, +2AC, and 1d6 is too strong.

The idea is that if the shield isn't light, you'd nead the DW feat to TWF with it at all. So compare to 1d8/1d6.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
24695 Posts
Then yea. That works.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored
Joined Jul 2008
24695 Posts
Though i wouldn't make it TWF. I would make it a different feat. To make it more clear.

Shield fighting: if you are wielding a light weapon and a shield, you can use your shield as a 1d4 bludgeoning weapon.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

raleel
Joined Dec 1969
I think that even with a feat it's too much at 1d6. If you said only light weapons AND required the feat. I think it'd work.

(1d8 or 1d4)/+2AC (no two weapon fighting, big shield)
1d6/1d4/+1AC (spiked shield, proposed and mostly agreed upon change)
1d6/1d4/+2AC (spiked shield, if you allow two weapon defense with shields)
1d6/1d6/+0AC (straight twf)
1d8/1d6/+0AC (dual weapon)
1d6/1d6/+1AC (twd)

perhaps if you allow a light weapon/big shield@1d4 feat. that would give 1d6/1d4/+2AC, and functionally equivalent (I think) to 1d8/1d6/+0AC of dual weapon. Something like

Sword and Board Fighter
When using a big shield and a light weapon, you may use two weapon fighting with the shield as a regular melee weapon.

That'd be about right, yes? If you DIDN'T allow TWD with shields, that would mean that spiked shields would be the damage option (1d8/1d4/+1AC with DW) and big shield would be more defense oriented (1d6/1d4/+2AC with above proposed feat) with the single feat. straight up two weapons would be 1d8/1d6 in all likelihood.

Then there is some room in there for a second feat to make it so there is some matching feat possibilities TWD and DW (1d8/1d6/+1AC), although one would have to find something that was equivalent to +1AC or +1 damage. I hesitate to drop any conditions in here or options like pushes, although I do like them.
If you don't want any solution that involves adjustments to armor class depending on how a shield is used then I'd be inclined to go with the following...

Consider the 'Spiked Shield' as a type of small buckler with a spike on the boss. It's considered a light weapon so and be used with any normal one-hand weapon. Let it provide +1 to AC and do 1d4 piercing like a dagger. The only real downside to this is that there's no reason to take a dagger as an off-hand weapon. The only advantage I can see to the dagger is that it can be thrown.

For a standard +2AC 'medium' shield - Without two-weapon fighting then give a 'Fighter' a 'Shield Bash' manuver. Maybe the opponent saves vs. Dex or Str? Or just do a standard hit. If the PC successfully shield-bashes the opponent then he gets advantage on the strike following the shield bash. A player with the Two Weapon Fighting ability could attack with both hand-weapon and shield for damage (1d6 bashing?) or Shield Bash to give his primary weapon a better chance of hitting.

Just say that two-weapon defense is a shield bonus and clarify the old rule that the same kind of bonus never stacks.

You could either have +1 AC from the shield (a 1d4 weapon), basically gaining the benefit of TWD without taking the feat, or you could use a 1d6 light weapon and take the feat to gain the +1 shield bonus. That seems balanced.

Heavy shield would be a one-handed weapon for +2 AC, 1d6 damage, based on the general consensus of this thread. That allows for 1d6/1d6 damage and a greater shield bonus without taking any feats. That's more powerful than other options. Maybe if you need a feat to shield bash with a heavy shield it would balance it.
raleel
Joined Dec 1969
You need to drop heavy shield down to 1d4 to get it to a single feat for off hand use, and it probably should be a light weapon in the main hand. Otherwise you need two feats to balance it, because it has +1 AC AND +1 equivalent damage over the proposed spiked shield mod.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
24695 Posts
The short of it is..

6 points to spend.
1 point for AC
1 point per die size.
split between either hand.

Feat for 1 point. But only if AC < 3.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

jaelis
Joined Dec 1969
The only real downside to this is that there's no reason to take a dagger as an off-hand weapon. The only advantage I can see to the dagger is that it can be thrown.

Dagger is the only way to get finesse and thrown. If you don't care about both of those, then a short sword or a hand axe is better damage.
raleel
Joined Dec 1969
The short of it is..

• 6 points to spend.

• 1 point for AC

• 1 point per die size.

• split between either hand.

• Feat for 1 point. But only if AC < 3.

For clarirty:
d2 = 1
d4 = 2
d6 = 3
d8 = 4
d10 = 5
d12 = 6

This would also mean

• 1 point for Reach

• 1 point for Finesse

• Gain 1 point for Mounted

• Light maximum points in damage dice is 3

This works for katanas (1d10[5] + finesse[1]), spiked chains (1d8[4]+reach[1]+finesse[1]), and eveyrthing else I can find currently.

Hrm, looks like pikes are missing points then with d8/reach (5 points).

Also, this only applies to military weapons.

jaelis
Joined Dec 1969
You need to account for heavy. That's why the pike is d8.

Also, a point for finesse isn't quite right, compare rapier and longsword or shortsword and hand axe.

I think half a point each for finesse and thrown works, where you can round down. But non-heavy 2H weapons only get 5 points. That might work better.
raleel
Joined Dec 1969
To be honest, I don't really like finesse being a balancing point (and thus costing points) at all. If it wasn't, one could easily call a katana a finesse bastard sword as has been done in the past and have done with it.

I'm also not real excited about throwing (heh) thrown in there. It seems like a different space entirely.

So, perhaps something like

• 1 point for heavy two handed reach

• 2 points for two handed reach

• 3 points for reach

• gain 1 point for removing ability score damage (only base dice)

I think this (and the removal of finesse) lets us pick up pike and whip and keep spiked chain and the other two handers.

Shiroiken
Joined Mar 2008
1524 Posts
The short of it is..

• 6 points to spend.

• 1 point for AC

• 1 point per die size.

• split between either hand.

• Feat for 1 point. But only if AC < 3.

For clarirty:
d2 = 1
d4 = 2
d6 = 3
d8 = 4
d10 = 5
d12 = 6

This would also mean

• 1 point for Reach

• 1 point for Finesse

• Gain 1 point for Mounted

• Light maximum points in damage dice is 3

This works for katanas (1d10[5] + finesse[1]), spiked chains (1d8[4]+reach[1]+finesse[1]), and eveyrthing else I can find currently.

Hrm, looks like pikes are missing points then with d8/reach (5 points).

Also, this only applies to military weapons.

The base math that most weapons seem to be made from:
Base Simple: 1d6
Base Martial: 1d8

Die type Modifications (round up)
Two Handed: +1
Heavy: +1