Kelemvor and The Raven Queen

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ok, not EXACTLY sure if this goes here but this has been driving me nuts. my campaign is kind of revolving around the raven queen vs vecna story arc, but the story has run us from abeir into faerun, where of course our characters have pisses off now vecna, orcus, shar, asmodeas, lolth and a few other overpowerfull enemies.

PROBLEM - we kind of wound up in the forgotten realms setting and now me and the DM have been arguing about the fact that the raven queen doesnt exsist in forgottem realms. of course out epic level campaign is pretty much centered around the raven queen. for now we have a tenuous truce where the raven queen can be a sort of guest in kelemvors court, but i'm still unsure on how this situation would work. is kelemvor just another name for the raven queen? should they be one and the same? if anyone has some input on this i'd like some clarification. because my main characters epic destiniy and whole back story is the Ravens Consort, essentially sleeping with a god. and i'd rather they not have to do their shaking up in kelemvors motel rooms.
it's your dm's table she exists or she doesnt


however your DM is quite correct in realms canon lore she is not in the realms officailly.


that also bears note that she is the goddess of DEATH and Kelemvor is the god of the DEAD.

so no there is no reason why she couldnt exist in the Realms. further more iirc correctly there was a novel'adventure module that had some shrine/temple/whatever that had statues of several deities in it. If it was keep of the shadowfell than it had a right up for adapting it for the realms. If it was one of the cale novels, I'd suggest reading through it or wait for Mr. Misc. or go on and ask at Candlekeep.com.( come to think of it they had threads there on this topic....)




also on that note: Vecna does not exist in the Realms either........ the 4e core lore is for the nentir vale and not any of the other settings.



 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
What? Vecna doesnt exist in the Realms!? Then how do you explain that artifact that they found in Fzoul's secret treasure cache?

And anyway ,things llke Spelljammer and Planescape, have sorta united all the settings, so Vecana or the Raven Queen may have spent some time in Realmspace. Some of the gods in the Realms came from other settings, so why not Raven Queen? After all FR Bane is Core Bane now. 
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
However the DM says exists in the Realms exists in the Realms.

That being said, keep in mind that Silversword is always wrong, no matter what, and you'll be okay, unless I agree with him, in which case, he probably got all of the details totally screwed up anyway. 

"Be careful to choose your enemies well.  Friends don't much matter.  But the choice of enemies is very important."  

- Oscar Wilde

FR Bane is not Core Bane either so sayeth Richard Baker some 4 years ago or something.


Vecna is not a realms deity and neither is Raven Queen.


nothing in the rule books in FR canon....... and it was all shoehorned into the realms............



stoping now. 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
FR Bane is not Core Bane either so sayeth Richard Baker some 4 years ago or something.



Ok, so how do you explain FR Bane suddenly switching to the Core Bane's holy symbol!?
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
However the DM says exists in the Realms exists in the Realms.

That being said, keep in mind that Silversword is always wrong, no matter what, and you'll be okay, unless I agree with him, in which case, he probably got all of the details totally screwed up anyway. 



Im not ALWAYS wrong! There were a couple times that Ive been right!
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
FR Bane is not Core Bane either so sayeth Richard Baker some 4 years ago or something.



Ok, so how do you explain FR Bane suddenly switching to the Core Bane's holy symbol!?



the same way Luiren was wiped out, the core book's lore was shoehorned  into the realms.

point of note: Corellon is unaligned in the core rules but he's lsited as Good in the setting books.

Corellon in therealms also uses the core corellon's symbol as soes Lolth in therealms uses the core symbol.


someone read the first write ups on the fr 4e and asked where are the teleporting elves and all that?? it was shoehorned..... every bit of it.

I spend too much time here

a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
seems to me the whole forgotten realms was kinda added in to the main 4e info kinda halfassedly, really no way to bridge the gap between standard and forgotten realms.
they fed to the masses who were saying that the FR was too fleshed out, too many wizards etc.

and yes hte POL (Points of Light) template was shoehorned inot the realms and it only alienated the fanbase.


but  you'd be correct, too much a gap, the damage done and hopefully with 5E realms it will be repaired......

keep FR Lore in the FR

Keep Greyhawk Lore in GH
Keep Drksun in DArksun
Keep eberron lorei n Eberron 
keep dragonlance lore within DL
keep planescape and spelljammer lore where appropriate( which is jsut about anywhere)
keep core lore in core setting if there is one.

shoehorn nothing.



to have RAvenQueen in the Realms the most common use is to have her as Kelemovr's consort 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
However the DM says exists in the Realms exists in the Realms.

That being said, keep in mind that Silversword is always wrong, no matter what, and you'll be okay, unless I agree with him, in which case, he probably got all of the details totally screwed up anyway. 



Im not ALWAYS wrong! There were a couple times that Ive been right!


Sure you are.  Now go back to your kelp forest and keep smacking your noms with rocks. 

As to the subject at hand, I've long given up trying to make sense of rectifying 4e lore with anything prior.  Just use what you like, and discard what you don't.  It really is that simple. 

"Be careful to choose your enemies well.  Friends don't much matter.  But the choice of enemies is very important."  

- Oscar Wilde

Redd's Apple ale for everybody.....
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
FR Bane is not Core Bane either so sayeth Richard Baker some 4 years ago or something.



Ok, so how do you explain FR Bane suddenly switching to the Core Bane's holy symbol!?

Art misstake in the FRCS

Dragon 372 was pretty clear: "The Bane of the core D&D® setting is not the same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms® setting! [...]shouldn’t necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn."
seems to me the whole forgotten realms was kinda added in to the main 4e info kinda halfassedly, really no way to bridge the gap between standard and forgotten realms.

Wasn't supposed to. Two entirely different settings.

And FR (and the others) was there way before the new "main 4e", if anything main 4e is what was added halfassedly without a way to bridge the gap to "standard D&D" (aka the shared setting D&D had for decades before 4e)

keep FR Lore in the FR

Keep Greyhawk Lore in GH
Keep Drksun in DArksun
Keep eberron lorei n Eberron 
keep dragonlance lore within DL
keep planescape and spelljammer lore where appropriate( which is jsut about anywhere)
keep core lore in core setting if there is one.

shoehorn nothing.

I disagree here. Except for Eberron who came out of nothing in 3e and PoL who also just suddenly appeared in 4e, the others have been together for decades.
yeah via planescape and spelljammer...... of which I consider to include planar spell travel, planetary travel and those astral ships... which cannonically speaking may not be the case, just how I see it.( which is why I said keep planescape and spell jammer where appropriate.)

 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
PLanescape is awesome, Berk!
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
ne'er said it was.

so tell me berk, did you read the berking daily dnd stuff today ?? 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
Damn, that does sound interesting.  While I'll probably hate the crunchy ruleset stuff, I am getting interested in the fluff approach they're using.  Time will tell I guess.

"Be careful to choose your enemies well.  Friends don't much matter.  But the choice of enemies is very important."  

- Oscar Wilde

is kelemvor just another name for the raven queen?

Kelemvor is stated as a substitute for the Raven Queen when running H1-E3, but they are different gods, from different settings. Still, it's an excellent option, if desired. Or more appropriately: maybe treat them as different 'aspects'.

Compare Kelemvore's Fugue Plane (FRCG p.63): "The Crystal Spire, a tower of glittering transparent rock, watches over the City of Judgment, a gray metropolis of the dead, in the otherwise flat and featureless Fugue Plane. From the Crystal Spire, Kelemvor and his seneschal, Jergal, judge the dead. Connections: Shadowfell"

with the Raven Queen's Letherna (MotP p.60): "Nestled as it is among the highest peaks of this jagged range, hers is a mighty stronghold, cut from black ice that sparkles with new snow. Towers thrust up from the maze of walls and graceful bridges, drawing the eye to the storm of souls spinning above her citadel. From this maelstrom of spirits, a grim procession descends through her gates, summoned to learn their final fates."

For more fun: also compare these places to Wee Jas' Cabal Macabre: "Her domain takes the form of a huge and intricately carved ice castle, that glows with a pale light. Wee Jas' powers quell the bladestorm within a half mile of her location, allowing her to maintain her realm. Cabal Macabre is located on a huge, possibly infinite shard of black ice". Indeed, Erik Scott de Bie (co-author of The Shadowfell) stated "most of the Raven Queen-related lore is my baby" and "I interpret the Raven Queen as basically *being* Wee Jas, albeit having absorbed Nerull's power and become a blacker deity".
"The Bane of the core D&D® setting is not the same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms® setting! [...]shouldn’t necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn."

Exactly! They are two different 'aspects' of the same 'diety', each with different memories and personalities.

Indeed, it even seems that each campaign setting technically has it's own overlapping 'versions' of all the Astral dominions (the overlap of each version seeming to be more a matter of belief rather than actual physicality).
Don't forget Jergal!Wink  You might be able to use Myrkul as Vecna. Perhaps the Lord of Bones is trying to put himself back together and via for his throne again.  Myrkul, the Reaper, might add to the Vecna story immersing your characters in the realms.  Maybe they don't know who he really is and what his true plans are.  Jergal popped into my head thinking of Kelemvor, Myrkul, Cyric (who stole the portfolio for a while).  Jergal and Kelemvor may have a intermediary to the players, through the Raven Queen.  It's your Realm do what thou wilst.  I wouldn't think being in the presents of any Lord/God over the Dead would be pleasant even if the player was some kind of Necromancer.  Something of that scale of power would have the means to dishearten even a paladin immune to fear.  Kelemvor is more of an "anti-undead" God which might be useful if you are trying to keep something terrible from happening.  Honestly, I don't know much about the Raven Queen or her doctrines but I have three books with Jergal, Myrkul, and Kelemvor.  I also have a 2e Vecna Adventure where he tries to pull himself together, haha.  It seems like I've also read an Epic Level 4e adventure with Vecna that aludes to the Sword of Kas/Kos/Kus which was important to story and might reflect another aspect that would also need a persona.  This is all just my thoughts to help provide you some possible side options to emmerse Your game in the Realms When using (Raven Queen/Vecna adventure). 

It may even feel like a Sundering Adventure when your done.Wink
"The Bane of the core D&D® setting is not the same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms® setting! [...]shouldn’t necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn."

Exactly! They are two different 'aspects' of the same 'diety', each with different memories and personalities.

No, they are two different entities. Bane was just the working title they used while designing this deity for PoL and then they just chose to stick with it.

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it was the same for Gruumsh and Corellon, Sehanine, Herinios( whos name I cant spell), Tiamat, Bahamut.


working names they just went with.

better it would have been if they just left the deity section only with a description and state that the deities would be listed in the individual settings. 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
"The Bane of the core D&D® setting is not the same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms® setting! [...]shouldn’t necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn."

Exactly! They are two different 'aspects' of the same 'diety', each with different memories and personalities.

No, they are two different entities. Bane was just the working title they used while designing this deity for PoL and then they just chose to stick with it.

'Aspects' are effectively separate people that share an affiliated... force (mostly from believers). Them sharing the same name (and holy symbol) is not just coincidence.

Dieties rely on (and are shaped by) the belief of worshippers. Example: it wouldn't matter if say, Lathander initially had no idea who Amaunator was. If most of Lathander's worshippers started believing that he is Amaunator, then by golly, he really *is* Amaunator.

And beliefs tend to bleed into other primes; it's happened plenty of times in the Realms.
I have a Ravenloft Module called Vecna Reborn.      I think is Venca one of the most inter-campaign based NPCs in D&D.


"The Bane of the core D&D® setting is not the same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms® setting! [...]shouldn’t necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn."

Exactly! They are two different 'aspects' of the same 'diety', each with different memories and personalities.

No, they are two different entities. Bane was just the working title they used while designing this deity for PoL and then they just chose to stick with it.

'Aspects' are effectively separate people that share an affiliated... force (mostly from believers). Them sharing the same name (and holy symbol) is not just coincidence.

Dieties rely on (and are shaped by) the belief of worshippers. Example: it wouldn't matter if say, Lathander initially had no idea who Amaunator was. If most of Lathander's worshippers started believing that he is Amaunator, then by golly, he really *is* Amaunator.

And beliefs tend to bleed into other primes; it's happened plenty of times in the Realms.




be that as it may the pol Bane is still not the bane of the realms.

( besides in Greyhawk there is Hextor who countered herinious)


a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
"The Bane of the core D&D® setting is not the same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms® setting! [...]shouldn’t necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn."

Exactly! They are two different 'aspects' of the same 'diety', each with different memories and personalities.

No, they are two different entities. Bane was just the working title they used while designing this deity for PoL and then they just chose to stick with it.

'Aspects' are effectively separate people that share an affiliated... force (mostly from believers). Them sharing the same name (and holy symbol) is not just coincidence.

Dieties rely on (and are shaped by) the belief of worshippers. Example: it wouldn't matter if say, Lathander initially had no idea who Amaunator was. If most of Lathander's worshippers started believing that he is Amaunator, then by golly, he really *is* Amaunator.

And beliefs tend to bleed into other primes; it's happened plenty of times in the Realms.




be that as it may the pol Bane is still not the bane of the realms.

( besides in Greyhawk there is Hextor who countered herinious)



FR Bane is also less than 1,000 years old while PoL Bane is several thousand years old and was a participant in the dawn war.

be that as it may the pol Bane is still not the bane of the realms.

Absolutely.
FR Bane is also less than 1,000 years old while PoL Bane is several thousand years old and was a participant in the dawn war.

That's actually a good point: I have no idea how to reconcile the ret-conning of the entire creation mythos. I previously did my best here, but that is some seriously messed up stuff (i.e. the creation of the universe doesn't even effect PC's, so re-writing it would seem to serve no purpose except for the ego of the writer). Either the gods can time-travel, the legends are incorrect, or the creation mythos (like Gods and the Astral plane) is based on belief and thus similarly malleable. I'll be interested to see how it's Next handled.

What retconn!?
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
What retconn!?

4e's 'creation of the multiverse' story was brand new (and nothing like previous editions).

Yes, because it was originally intended to stand on its own rather than be part of the same over-cosmology (Planescape/etc) as per the 2E/3E assumptions. You can try to reconcile it into the latter but it's always going to be an awkward fit.
What retconn!?

4e's 'creation of the multiverse' story was brand new (and nothing like previous editions).




The Forgotten Realms cosmology is different than that of the Core setting, There was no retconn for the Realms, maybe in standard, but since Nentir Vale or whatever its called didnt exist in previous editons you really cant call that a Retconn either, and anyway, in the Realms each culture and religion has its own creation theories.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
The Forgotten Realms cosmology is different than that of the Core setting

1e & 2e's Forgotten Realms used the core, "Great Wheel" cosmology.

3e's Forgotten Realms introduced the world tree concept (a retconn that was never explained), but no one really used it.

4e's Forgotten Realms uses 4e's core cosmology: astral sea, elemental chaos, shadowfell, etc. This retconn was at least explained.
The Forgotten Realms cosmology is different than that of the Core setting

1e & 2e's Forgotten Realms used the core, "Great Wheel" cosmology.

3e's Forgotten Realms introduced the world tree concept (a retconn that was never explained), but no one really used it.

4e's Forgotten Realms uses 4e's core cosmology: astral sea, elemental chaos, shadowfell, etc. This retconn was at least explained.



Yeah, but they had an ingame reason to explain the changes to the cosmology, so it isnt really a retconn, a retconn would be if they said here is the way the Realms cosmology is and were going to pretend that its always been that way, that wasnt the case.

But really, the way I see it, the various planes of existence are so far beyond mortal understanding that it isnt really the planes that have changed, just peoples views of them has.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
they had an ingame reason to explain the changes to the cosmology, so it isnt really a retconn

To clarify: when I said "That's actually a good point: I have no idea how to reconcile the ret-conning of the entire creation mythos", this was in reference to the core multiverse creation mythos.

4e FR uses 4e's cosmology, which presumeably could allow for planar crossovers as was done before. However, Core's retconning creates some weirdness (kinda like 3e FR's retconn wierdness, but in reverse this time).

"It got weird, didn't it?" - Dr. Evil

the way I see it, the various planes of existence are so far beyond mortal understanding that it isnt really the planes that have changed, just peoples views of them has.

Yup.
Well yeah, I agree, they a did a good job totally screwing the planes up in 4e, but I think most of it is easy to ignore, I still use the Ethreal plane and individual Elemental planes in my 4e games.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there

Firstly, I love 4e. May it live forever. Second I do think they should have addressed 'cross-godding' a bit better.
Anyway in practice I tend to either replace her with Shar (who also incorporates Vecna) and drop the death aspect leaving that to kelemvor, alternatively the Raven Queen could be an exarch of Kelemvor or his not often spoken of and totally unofficial daughter. Or consort. Giggity.


As for Orcus - well he's a demon prince so he can exist anyway. 



 www.4eDM.org - A 4th Edition D&D Resource Site 

one of amny parts where 4e failed.........


the explanations of the planes in both 3 and 4e manual of the planes stunk pretty bad too..... it was all geared toward the core settings.....


what they should ahve done was done a list for each setting on which deity lives on what plane. 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
the explanations of the planes in both 3 and 4e manual of the planes stunk pretty bad

Imma let you finish, but the 3e MotP was one of the best supplements of all time!

 In there within its pages lists descriptions of each plane and the greyhawl deity that lived there and of which means nothing for othersettings.


that also said, I do hold the 3e book in better regard than the 4e one.


the planes above and the planes below books were done better than the 4e motp. 


that all said ,I prefer lost empires one of the best 3.x books..... 
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
Quick points:

1) Kelemvor and the Raven Queen can't possibly be the same god. Kelemvor was a mortal mercenary who died and later ascended to take up the portfolio's of Death and the Dead.

2) Core Bane and Realms Bane are two completely different entities who just happen to have the same name (due to incredible laziness on the part of the 4E design team). Core Bane was born a god at the dawn of time while Realms Bane is a mortal who pursued godhood.

Anyway, if a DM wants to use the Raven Queen in the Realms, that's fine. Kelemvor would have a seriously problem with a new death god appearing on the scene, so that should cause some problems.
I didnt think Kelemvor had the death portfolio.... just the dead.... meh he did or didnt Ill go look at correct myself when I care..( which isnt right now)
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....