Maybe its the array I don't like.

I am starting to think that my issues with DDN's ability scores is the result of the a starting array before racial and class bonuses. The ability scores are tilted too far too the array/rolled stats and not to the race and class for me.

I wonder how would D&D Next play if the based was 3d6 roll, a lower array, or a lower point buy and instead the class based ability adjustments are increased to +2 and the main racial ability adjustment is increased by +1.

For example, let's go through the proceess. The array could be 3rd Ed's nonelite array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Next you choose race. Lightfoot halfling is increased to +2 Dexterity and +1 Charisma.

Now pick class. Let's say I pick Fighter since I want a little duelist. Now as a lightfoot, if I put my 13 to Dex I am at 15 and +2 from fighter gets me to a nice 17. But my other abilty scores will be not impressive. No big HP bonus from Con and the most one extra language.

I could put the Fighter adjustment to Con with the 12 and get Dex 15 and Con 14 with the 12 in Charisma.

That is not too bad for choices.

I believe this could be a great module for play by tilting ability scores more to class and race. Perhaps nonelite is too low but I think something might be there.

Anyone else feel that way?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I can see the benefits. But wouldn't this just make certain class/race combinations all the more manditory?
My two copper.
It shouldn't as your other abilities will suffer if you stack race and class.

It would also eliminate "Everyone gots 14+ Con and Dex"itis as that will come at a cost.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

You make a good point, Orzel. Part of the "feel" of various editions of D&D goes back to the stat generation methods and their outcomes. Modern D&D assumes a higher stat average than older D&D, so if you want to simulate an earlier version you need to go back to something like 3d6 instead.

Marv (Finarvyn) Master of Mutants (MA and GW) Playing 5E D&D and liking it! OD&D player since 1975

Well instead of assuming everyone is starting with stats between 3 and 18, what if the game was rigged so you started with stats between 8 and 13. Make getitng an 18 require several levels even for an orcish barbarian.
Well instead of assuming everyone is starting with stats between 3 and 18, what if the game was rigged so you started with stats between 8 and 13. Make getitng an 18 require several levels even for an orcish barbarian.


I wouldn't be against this.
My two copper.
Old-school!

No stat bonus higher than +3, but you get bonus XP if your prime requisite is 13+ !
3-13 is too low for primary abilities. The idea is that race and class will near guarantee 2 abilities over 14 but the rest might be low. If you stack your best roll, race, and class into 1 ability, you should get an 18 BUT all your other abilities will stink.

Maybe 14, 14, 13, 11, 10, 8 array, 25 pt buy, or 3d6.

Humans get +2 to one, +1 to rest.
The first bonus for dwarf, elf, gnome, halfing and half orc is increased by 1.
Half-elves get +2 to any and +1 to Cha.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Why is it so hard for people to realize that further rewarding people for having high ability scores is a bad idea? It increases the divide between the optomized and the unoptimized.
Why is it so hard for people to realize that further rewarding people for having high ability scores is a bad idea? It increases the divide between the optomized and the unoptimized.



That's not the fault of high ability scores.

It's the fault of the fickle 20 sided dice. Characters with low abilty modifiers have no effect on that big fat die and are slaves to it.  But push too far any the bar is rasied.

So instead, make ability score placement a meaning full choice. One that matters but is not too hard and limiting.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Why is it so hard for people to realize that further rewarding people for having high ability scores is a bad idea? It increases the divide between the optomized and the unoptimized.

I used to totally agree with you, but check this out.

Now, first of all, I mentioned the max bonus of +3, and that's just for and 18+.

Now, on top of that, that bonus should apply to very little.  AC and To-Hit, max spells, that sort of thing.  But not much else.  Not most skills.  A +1 or +2 to hit is nice, but it's not much.

That means that two beginning fighters, one with higher STR and one with lower STR, will be almost the same.  But as they gain XP, the fighter with higher STR will become noticably better at being a fighter, but because of the shared XP pool and staged XP, will never get too far ahead.  Instead of a crazy-high, game-breaking stat bonus, the fighter just gets an extra level, maybe two.  So now he has better saves and whatever else.  It also means that, while it's handy, a fighter with an 18 WIS isn't stepping on the clerics or rogue's toes.
I do think the point-buy and array are too high currently. 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 would be fine. I'll probably actually lower it to that and keep the race/class bonuses the same.
Why is it so hard for people to realize that further rewarding people for having high ability scores is a bad idea? It increases the divide between the optomized and the unoptimized.

I used to totally agree with you, but check this out.

Now, first of all, I mentioned the max bonus of +3, and that's just for and 18+.

Now, on top of that, that bonus should apply to very little.  AC and To-Hit, max spells, that sort of thing.  But not much else.  Not most skills.  A +1 or +2 to hit is nice, but it's not much.

That means that two beginning fighters, one with higher STR and one with lower STR, will be almost the same.  But as they gain XP, the fighter with higher STR will become noticably better at being a fighter, but because of the shared XP pool and staged XP, will never get too far ahead.  Instead of a crazy-high, game-breaking stat bonus, the fighter just gets an extra level, maybe two.  So now he has better saves and whatever else.  It also means that, while it's handy, a fighter with an 18 WIS isn't stepping on the clerics or rogue's toes.



I could get behind this. AND I WILL.
EXP for high str is stupid, exp for high int or wis I could see.

Furthermore, no rewarding people with extra powers beyond what the ability scores already do isn't gonna help. Reducing the bonuses, and the number of things they apply to might be a good idea though. 
EXP for high str is stupid, exp for high int or wis I could see.

XP for monsters and treasure and quests (and anything, really) is stupid, too, but that's the game.
EXP for high str is stupid, exp for high int or wis I could see.

XP for monsters and treasure and quests (and anything, really) is stupid, too, but that's the game.



I recall when I dropped using XP in 1980 or so...
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I like the lower starting stats, whether or not we are allowed a +2 to one racial bonus.

My problem with the more modern 4d6 drop lowest or the 'elite array' in Next is that, without the option of Feats, characters will be gaining scores of +1 to abilities... I can see this becoming cumbersome, escpecially with a hard cap of 20.
Weakening the ability across the board is just as bad as increasing them across the board.

In the old days, abilities outside of your primary did almost nothing so they meant nothing. If not for roll under rules, most players could practically ignore any ability score that was nonnegative and not the primary.

As the expected abbility score increased and the bonuses that gave expanded, every PC started to powergame their primary abilities and throw as many "12" and "14" bones to the other abilites for the nice tiny bonues as they could. 

I think D&D Next would be benefited by a modular (or ever standard) where PCs get either one very good ability score or 2 good ability score. Then make the rest do nothing (or worse).

The 3 or 4 good stat model was no fun to me.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

In the old days, abilities outside of your primary did almost nothing so they meant nothing.

In the old days, all stats were incredibly helpful regardless of class. Because of the roll-under rules, an exceptionally high score like a 15 would help anyone become quite competent for the purposes of all related checks.

The metagame is not the game.

In the old days, abilities outside of your primary did almost nothing so they meant nothing.

In the old days, all stats were incredibly helpful regardless of class. Because of the roll-under rules, an exceptionally high score like a 15 would help anyone become quite competent for the purposes of all related checks.




Which is why, regardless of what the skill system in the final release of 5e is, I'm going with a "roll-under your ability score" type of check of some kind.
I'm all for lower point buy and arrays. Sign me up.

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

In the old days, abilities outside of your primary did almost nothing so they meant nothing.

In the old days, all stats were incredibly helpful regardless of class. Because of the roll-under rules, an exceptionally high score like a 15 would help anyone become quite competent for the purposes of all related checks.




Which is why, regardless of what the skill system in the final release of 5e is, I'm going with a "roll-under your ability score" type of check of some kind.



When we play ADnD 2nd the roll under seeks to give us a to small range of DC's
so we usualy house rule to go wirh D20+ ability score
Half the fun of D&D is rolling characters randomly. 


 If you feature a gamblers personality I am sure thats true.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

maybe there should also be a modual for people who don't feal there is enough advancement in their character without somthing like base attack bonus.

where you start with all 10s for ability score +racial + class bonus.
But gain more stat boosts while you level
 
Genetics establish a baseline, your starting point, nurture has a big impact as well. The identical twin thing for example. Identical twins raised in different environment will have markedly different physical and mental characteristics after sufficient time. Even when raised next to each other it's not unusual for them to diverge, especially as they get older.
Half the fun of D&D is rolling characters randomly. 


 If you feature a gamblers personality I am sure thats true.



I feature a 'realist' personality, and therefore acknowledge that being born IS a gamble.



Nope its utterly deterministic ...  

A Gambling personality is about getting enjoyment out of lack of control and spikey intermittent rewards... its not about realism.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

D&D is utterly deterministic about things which in real life are eratic and hard to predict. 
Hitpoints are entirely set and determined real life wound responses are so eratic we should be realistically making saving throws every attack and after the fight additional ones.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

My group likes high ability scores(read 4d6 drop lowest), but we also fight against as if we're a level or two higher than we actually are so it more or less balances out. So for us, this rulling is just the same as what we've been doing all along.

That being said, starting ability scores is probably the easiest thing to mod in the game. First you write up a point buy system with different numbers of points for various power levels. Then you write what kinds of random rolls would replicate those same point values for players who like the randomness of the game. I would think that 4d6 would be the "standard" because higher ability scores is more fun for new players, but I think it should just be the first presented option with all the other options right there on the same page maybe with a chart or something.
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
Where ar eyou getting these numbers?

And how do you map them to DnD scores?

Yeah a person with a genetic disposition to be strong is not incredibly likely to grow up and be an 8, but neither is he assured to be a 16 or an 18.

DnD abstracts a lot of non-genetic factors into its ability scores.
NOt quite, while that may have been the case in older editions starting in 3e ability scores have been largely unlimited.

4e capped ability scores indirectly, i.e. only 30 levels and a set number of score boosts, with only limited ways of getting extra scores.

and next so far just stucka  cap at 20, so a person could theoretlically roll a 3 int and eventually get it up to 20. 
 

You just described life itself.  


Life isnt heroic fantasy either. 

Further

Life isnt fair.. it doesnt mean I want my games lopside and unfair

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 

You just described life itself.  


Life isnt heroic fantasy either. 

Further

Life isnt fair.. it doesnt mean I want my games lopside and unfair 

Most of us dont have control over many things in our life
how is propogating that lack of power to a heroic story experience
...  fantasy.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Unfair game for the sake of "realism" in a fantasy narrative based game? No thanks, I will pass. That there is pretty much the definition of the one thing which could get me to drop this game and never look back: imbalance. 

This game isn't a simulation, its a communal narrative. And, the players are all equally important protagonists. As such, I want all the players to have the ability to contribute equally. The sorts of mechanics suggested (extra EXP for high scores, enforced randomization for the sake of "realism") are everything I don't want this game to have. They are the very antithesis of what I call D&D or roleplaying. 

Of course, I could care less if such modular options exist, as long as I can expatriate them from my game with ease.  
 

You just described life itself.  


Life isnt heroic fantasy either. 

Further

Life isnt fair.. it doesnt mean I want my games lopside and unfair




My D&D doesn't start as heroic fantasy either. It's starts as fantasy. If the players are lucky and good they MAY become heroes.

I do like my games unfair, because that's what makes them realistic, which is the only reason I would ever play one.

I dunno about you, but I don't see elves and gnomes in my day to day life...nor dragons, or castles. Nor can I cast a spell to light a candle over on the table. That's all the fantasy I need. In order to care about it, however, it has to exist in a realistic manner.




 Look out Phoenix you be winding em up;) 1st ed still has its charms;) I play newer editions myself but a dew peopledo not get this playstyle. If you don't have a 18 maybe a 16 at level 1 you suck.

"player entitlement" Since 2000 and codified since 2008!! 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Phoenix would you be willing to try something different as long as it avoids the major problems of 3rd and 4th ed? Doesn't have to replace AD&D for you but maybe a different type of game to play occasionally?Skills and feats are option are class variants ok or not interested?

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I am starting to think that my issues with DDN's ability scores is the result of the a starting array before racial and class bonuses. The ability scores are tilted too far too the array/rolled stats and not to the race and class for me. I wonder how would D&D Next play if the based was 3d6 roll, a lower array, or a lower point buy and instead the class based ability adjustments are increased to +2 and the main racial ability adjustment is increased by +1. For example, let's go through the proceess. The array could be 3rd Ed's nonelite array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Next you choose race. Lightfoot halfling is increased to +2 Dexterity and +1 Charisma. Now pick class. Let's say I pick Fighter since I want a little duelist. Now as a lightfoot, if I put my 13 to Dex I am at 15 and +2 from fighter gets me to a nice 17. But my other abilty scores will be not impressive. No big HP bonus from Con and the most one extra language. I could put the Fighter adjustment to Con with the 12 and get Dex 15 and Con 14 with the 12 in Charisma. That is not too bad for choices. I believe this could be a great module for play by tilting ability scores more to class and race. Perhaps nonelite is too low but I think something might be there. Anyone else feel that way?


I agree, except the negative abilities that scores 8 and 9 entail feel awkward. One negative is can be interesting, and flavorful, but two is annoying.

But yeah, starting scores that are less swingy and with less math help alot. 
Half the fun of D&D is rolling characters randomly.


I believe it. In your campaigns, rolling characters randomly is ... half the fun. Tongue Out

Maybe something like:

13 11 11 10 10 8
 
Half the fun of D&D is rolling characters randomly.


I believe it. In your campaigns, rolling characters randomly is ... half the fun. Tongue Out




With people like you around is it any wonder I have something like 20+ bans per year from these forums?

I would like to thank the internet for keeping me out of prison for aggravated assault however.


*chuckle*

No harm intended. 

The point of this topic was not to have weaker PCs.

It wa to create more stereotypical, lesss automatic, ones where class and race are mjor factors.

Intstead of an array of 15, 14, 13,12, 10, 8 or high pt buy where PCS almost always add the 15 and class bonus for a 17, put the two next highest  to Con, Dex, or the second bonus.

You start with a lower array/pts/rolls

All Halfings and Elves are dextorous and DEx is their highest ot 2nd. Same with Dwarves and CON, Gnomes and INT, and Half orcs and STR.

All fighters would have high STR, DEX, or COO. Same with Wizard and INT, Clerics with WIS.

But all their other ability scores would have +1 at best.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Especially because of bounded accuracy, this is a sensible idea.
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