Show and Tell + Phantasmal Image

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When my opponent plays Show and Tell and I choose Phantasmal Image, when would I choose a creature in play? The way it's worded it makes it sound like I would have to pick a creature when Image resolves, but since it's being put into play through Show and Tell I don't know when I'd do this.

When my opponent plays Show and Tell and I choose Phantasmal Image, when would I choose a creature in play? The way it's worded it makes it sound like I would have to pick a creature when Image resolves, but since it's being put into play through Show and Tell I don't know when I'd do this.


You must choose a creature the moment Image would enter the battlefield - it doesn't matter if its entering because it has resolved or because something is putting it directly on the field.


So you must choose a creature that's already on the battlefield at this point - you can't choose creatures that are entering at the same time as Phantasmal Image. You can't copy the creatures the other players at putting down due to S&T.

[<o>]
Each player makes his or her selection in turn order beginning with the player whose turn it is. Then each selected permanent card is revealed and choices for things like Phantasmal Image are made at this time. Then all the permanent cards are put onto the battlefield. Note that you can't choose to copy one of the permanents your opponents is putting onto the battlefield: you can only chose a creature already on the battlefield.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Are you sure this is the correct order?
Each player makes his or her selection in turn order beginning with the player whose turn it is. Then each selected permanent card is revealed and choices for things like Phantasmal Image are made at this time. Then all the permanent cards are put onto the battlefield.

I see two possible scenarios here:

A)
1) Each player chooses a card to put out, without revealing them but making sure «is clear *which* card was chosen»
2) All cards get revealed simultaneously
3) Players announce ETB choices (Clone & such), in APNAP order
4) All chosen cards enter the Battlefield

B)
1) Each player chooses a card to put out, without revealing them but making sure «is clear *which* card was chosen»
2) Each players reveal their card and announce ETB choices (if applicable), in APNAP order
3) All chosen cards enter the Battlefield
(with this second scenario, the Active Player must choose something to Clone without knowing what other permanents will enter play) 

My guess is scenario A to be the correct one, like you said, but that Show&Tell ruling seems to disagree: «If the cards being put onto the battlefield also require choices, those choices are made after all players choose their card. The active player makes choices for their card (if any), then the other players (if any) in turn order.» 

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

interesting....

They simultaneously enter the field.

Choices from replacement effects have to be made to affect the event in APNAP order.

Presumably, all players would have to know which cards have replacement effects to verify that they in fact have them.

It really isn't clear whether all cards are visible when the choices for replacement effects are made though.

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DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
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[O] Ruling?

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

[O] Ruling?

I've posted the question to the Judge page

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
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I thought the rules were that if the card comes from a hidden zone it is handled one way and if it comes from a public zone it is handled the other way?

For example, "each player discards a card" then all are chosen in secret and revealed at the same time vs "each player sacrifices a creature" then they are chosen publicly one at a time. Either way the action itself (discard or sacrifice or whatever) happens at the same time.

I would expect to know which creatures were entering the battlefield when choosing which of the pre-existing creatures to copy with my Image, but I wouldnt expect to know what my opponent was choosing before I chose the Image in the first place.

~ Tim     
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
This is no different from not being able to devour creatures that are entering the battlefield at the same time as a creature with devour.

Any clone-ability creature can't choose to copy something else that's entering the battlefield with it simultaneously; it can only choose something that was there before the event. 

MTG Rules Advisor
 

This is no different from not being able to devour creatures that are entering the battlefield at the same time as a creature with devour.

Any clone-ability creature can't choose to copy something else that's entering the battlefield with it simultaneously; it can only choose something that was there before the event. 

but...

let's say I choose Clone and my opponent chooses Lord of the Pit (both unrevealed in our hands)

there are several options on the field for Clone to copy including a Shriekmaw

I'm the active player, do I get to know my opponent is putting out a black creature before I choose what I copy?

if he chose a non black, non artifact creature, I may very well want to copy Shriekmaw, but maybe not so much if he chooses Lord of the Pit

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


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Is the ruling somehow unclear?









The current player chooses first, then each other player chooses in turn order. A player does not have to reveal the chosen card, so long as it is clear *which* card was chosen. After all choices are made, the cards are put onto the battlefield simultaneously.

 

MTG Rules Advisor
 

Is "choices" referring merely to the choice of card? or rather all choices including choices made for replacement effects?

I'd say that it seems rather ambiguous. 

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Is "choices" referring merely to the choice of card? or rather all choices including choices made for replacement effects?

I'd say that it seems rather ambiguous. 



It's the choice of the card.

The problem I see is that the first ruling, the one dated 10/4/2004 that talks about choices, doesn't actually make sense to me. Any ETB replacements happen at the instant you would put it on the battlefield, not beforehand (I'm aware that they technically are applied before you actually move them onto the battlefield, but my point is that you don't even try to apply them till you try to move them to the battlefield). As such, at that point, all the cards are revealed. But since you're not supposed to have prior knowledge of the choice before it actually enters the battlefield, you're technically not supposed to know their choices. The problem is practicality: It's almost impossible to do that. The way I'd personally handle it is to ask, "Does anyone have a clone effect?" If someone does, I'd have them choose something on the field to clone, then we'd actually reveal and ETB the chosen cards. 

MTG Rules Advisor
 

The way I'd personally handle it is to ask, "Does anyone have a clone effect?" If someone does, I'd have them choose something on the field to clone, then we'd actually reveal and ETB the chosen cards. 

Basically, your idea sums up to having players reveal+choose one player at a time, somewhat like my scenario B, but instead of doing it in APNAP order you'd have them order it according to abilities of the card they chose.

I am positively convinced that Wizards will not adopt this strategy.

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

The way I'd personally handle it is to ask, "Does anyone have a clone effect?" If someone does, I'd have them choose something on the field to clone, then we'd actually reveal and ETB the chosen cards. 

Basically, your idea sums up to having players reveal+choose one player at a time, somewhat like my scenario B, but instead of doing it in APNAP order you'd have them order it according to abilities of the card they chose.

I am positively convinced that Wizards will not adopt this strategy.



Well, that's the strategy I would use if, indeed, you are supposed to make a choice about clone effects without knowing what the other players chose. If, however, you are allowed to know their choices, then there's nothing special here.

I personally read it as you're supposed to make all choices completely independent of the other players' choices, regardless of the order they're made--that is, any choice you make is made without the knowledge of what cards the other players chose. And if I'm right, that's practically impossible, so what I said is how I would personally handle it because that'd be as close to doing the actual way as possible.

And if I'm wrong, then I won't do what I said because it wouldn't be necessary. 

MTG Rules Advisor
 

We've had a similar discussion a few months ago, about players discarding simultaneously I believe, and Natedogg gave us an OR (which, of course, I can't remember). Anybody's got better souvenirs than me?

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

I personally read it as you're supposed to make all choices completely independent of the other players' choices, regardless of the order they're made--that is, any choice you make is made without the knowledge of what cards the other players chose.

That would be my prefered scenario too, and it is quite feasable: players could write their choice on a piece of paper and then all cards+choices get revealed. But that also is a system Wizards refuses to implement, and I must say I agree with their choice.

As far as I'm concerned, scenario A remains the default. (pick cards, then reveal all cards, then announce ETB choices) But an OR would make me feel easier about it...

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

[O] Ruling?

I've posted the question to the Judge page

Please keep us informed!

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

if it helps any, Hypergenesis goes APNAP, there you can Clone other creatures

but I guess that wording is more straight forward
proud member of the 2011 community team
I personally read it as you're supposed to make all choices completely independent of the other players' choices, regardless of the order they're made--that is, any choice you make is made without the knowledge of what cards the other players chose.

That would be my prefered scenario too, and it is quite feasable: players could write their choice on a piece of paper and then all cards+choices get revealed. But that also is a system Wizards refuses to implement, and I must say I agree with their choice.

As far as I'm concerned, scenario A remains the default. (pick cards, then reveal all cards, then announce ETB choices) But an OR would make me feel easier about it...



I'm aware it's not an official policy of how to do it. If, however, the other players' choices are supposed to not influence any other player's decision, that's how I personally would do it in my games.

@Enigma: I would say Hypergenesis lets them go on the battlefield in APNAP order because it says 'starting with you,' implying it'll be done one at a time. S&T just says each player does it, so it'd be simultaneous.

MTG Rules Advisor
 

if it helps any, Hypergenesis goes APNAP, there you can Clone other creatures
but I guess that wording is more straight forward

Hypergenesis' text makes it unequivocally sequential, thus obeying scenario B. Moreover, this ruling confirms it: «In a game of N players, the process ends when all N players in sequence (starting with you) choose not to put a card onto the battlefield.»

Show&Tell remains a mystery! Help!

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

With Show and Tell the cards enter the battlefield at the same time, so they are revealed at the same time. Replacement effects are applied after revealing both cards. Scenario A is correct.
Yes, you will know what your opponent is putting onto the battlefield before you choose what creature to copy with Clone.

Each player chooses a card, then we reveal all choices (so we can make sure that replacement effects are being applied correctly), then we put them onto the battlefield. Since they're revealed before we make those choices, you will know what your opponent will be putting on the battlefield before you choose what your Clone will be copying. So if your opponent is revealing a nonblack, nonartifact creature, you'll be able to copy the Shriekmaw.

A similar situation involves Pithing Needle: you will know what your opponent is putting onto the battlefield before you choose what to name with the Needle, so you can name the card your opponent is putting onto the battlefield with the Needle to prevent them from activating its abilities.

(also, you know you can message me here if you need an [O] reply, right? You don't have to post everything to JudgeApps)

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

(also, you know you can message me here if you need an [O] reply, right? You don't have to post everything to JudgeApps)

noted

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

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