Magic 2014 Card Interaction: "Is it supposed to work this way?"

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hey,
Not sure if it's a bug or me misunderstanding something.

I have fiend hunter on the battlefield with a Shadowborn Apostle exiled.  I cast Restoration Angel, exiling the FH. The game then allows me to immediatly target the Shadowborn Demon that is on the BF, but nothing happens. FH enters the BF, no exiling, Demon is still on the battle field and no apsotle came back from exile.

I assumed that I would cast the angle, exile the hunter, the apostle would reappear, then the hunter, exiling the demon, and summonig sickness on hunter and Angel.

Thoughts or comments?

Spacegras
Fiend Hunter is acting real buggy this year.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

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You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

Hi Guys,

I was wondering about a specific scenario I just experienced.
I was fighting the Sliver-Hive-Deck during the campaign (I guess it's 3-5) with my green Eldrazi-Deck.

Had a Pellakka-Worm on the field (That big green 7/7 creature with Trample) with an attached Eldrazi-Conscription (+10/+10, trample, annihilator 2). So overall it was 17/17 with trample and annihilator 2 (kicked ass :D)

So I attacked, expecting to kill my foes (combined defense from all 5 opposing creatures was 12), when I suddenly realised they had 17 attack alltogether.
Shouldn't be a problem though, because of my annihilator 2... or so i thought.
The Problem was that the enemy had a first-strike-sliver (don't know the english card title :D ) in his team.
As it turned out the enemy didn't sacrifice anything due to the annihilator 2 ability (double checked on that, deeply searched his graveyard and his exile), but managed to kill my worm without him loosing any creature.

Conclusion: It seems like there's something buggy there. First-Strike-Damage is seemingly dealt before the "annihilation phase" even though the tooltip states the annihilation phase takes place before the blockers are declared.

I'm pretty sure it shouldn't work this way

Greetings, Mike
Your opponent probably sacrificed 2 lands.

Annihilator triggers during the Declare Attackers step, before your opponent even has a chance to declare blockers.
Your opponent probably sacrificed 2 lands.

Annihilator triggers during the Declare Attackers step, before your opponent even has a chance to declare blockers.

Like I said, double checked on that, he didn't sacrifice lands, didn't have an enchantment or artifact out, nothing.
Graveyard was also empty (with an exception of 3 slivers, which I killed earlier) and there was no card in the exile or something like that.
Just jumping back to the protection real quick...easiest way to remember is protection protects from D.E.B.T.

Damage
-Prevent all damage from what you have protection from
Enchantments (or equipment, I suppose)- Can't be enchanted or equipped with something you have protection from
Blocking - Can't be blocked by something you have protection from
Targetting- Can't be targetting by something you have protection from (if you are targetting, then gain protection, the spell fizzles are you are no longer a valid target.
Did he have any sliver tokens that you missed?
okay so this is weird as hell.

so i play against garruk in sealed. he casted Protean Hydra with 1 counter. when i tried to kill it with 2/1 creature while defending, it stayed alive and got 2 more counters. i lost that game pretty soon


i try to play again, he casts  Protean Hydra with 1 counter. i steal it with Switcheroo and equip Swiftfoot Boots so it doesnt get removed. when he attacks me, i try to defend with Protean Hydra, because in previous case it was literally unkillable by creature damage. Advocate of the Beast swings me for 2, my hydra dies. what the hell, why didnt it die when it was under garruks control then? both situations have creature attacking hydra, but it stayed alive for garruk and died for me.
The only thing I can think is that in the first case, there was something boosting its toughness? But the only things in Garruk's deck that do that are things like Overrun and Enlarge. Pretty hard to miss something like that.

Edit: Didn't realize it was in Sealed. Vigor is a possibility
I haven't played sealed but is vigor in the pool? Did he have that out?
no mass buffs for sure. he didnt have mana to cast any of those
Did he have any sliver tokens that you missed?

unfortunately not, he had this first-strike-sliver and 4 others (but nothing special, which could have been preventing me from dealing "annihilation-damage").

I don't know, it didn't happen again since then and I doubt it'll ever happen again, so I guess it was just some weird math-error-bug.

I'll keep an eye out for additional weird behaviour regarding this matter.

Thanks everyone for your help.
My opponent cast Cruel Revival and targeted my Phantasmal Dragon. The Phantasmal Dragon's passive ability resolved and it died, but my opponent still put a card from his graveyard in his hand. Shouldn't Cruel Revival have countered itself because there was no legal target?
The creature in the  graveyard is still a legal target, and it has no "THEN return a creature" clause, which, I'm pretty sure, mean's that it's two seperate, independent targetted effects. There should be a rule guru to know the proper answer, but that's my take. 
Terramorphic Expanse:

The game lets you confirm without selecting a land (easy mistake to make because the selection toggles), thus giving you no land.  Shouldn't it force a selection?

No it shouldn't. Your library is a hidden zone. You always have the option of failing to find a card when searching a hidden zone.
Thanks for clearing that up, makes sense.  

As a follow up question, If I play a card like Shock and there is a valid target, am I not obliged to select a target?  The game has allowed me to select no target in this case as well causing the spell to fizzle.
If the card requires a target, (ie: Shock), then yes, you have to select one.

If the card specifies 'up to n targets', then you have the option of choosing 0. But it seems like the game may be treating all targeted spells and abilities this way..
Sealed Deck Play: 

Card: [C]Windstorm[/C]
Target: [C]Phantasmal Dragon[/C]

Damage deal to Dragon did not dispell him. Can someone verify if this is right or wrong?
You did not do enough damage.
As you didn't target, you must reduce the toughness to 0

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

Sealed Deck Play: 

Card: [C]Windstorm[/C]
Target: [C]Phantasmal Dragon[/C]

Damage deal to Dragon did not dispell him. Can someone verify if this is right or wrong?


Working as intended. It didn't become targeted so it wasn't sacrificed. The word "target" needs to be in a spell, instant or ability in order for the ability of Phantasmal Dragon to activate.
Game keeps priority for Instants....I find this higly annoying as I still have to press Tab unlike in 2013.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

You did not do enough damage. As you didn't target, you must reduce the toughness to 0



Bad devil, damage doesn't cause reduction in toughness (unless from a source with wither or infect).

Robvalue: Copy target bug or glitch. You may choose a new card for the copy...

Will never buy games made by Arena Net again.

Will not buy Duel 2015 until 2HG reinstated.

 

Grei wrote:

Orc_Welfin wrote:
 I've removed content from this thread. 


Nice to know removing content is a company wide policy.
Yah, I'm screwing things up today posting from the phone and working.
I'm going home now. Literally.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

Is the 100 token limit a 'known issue'? (a Feature?)

I had 80 Zombie tokens (and 6 non-token zombies), endless ranks of the dead triggered and gave me 20 zombie tokens (instead of the 43 it should have), I attacked with a Grave Titan and the attack trigger went off, but didn't give any tokens.

I find it increadibly stupid that there is a challange (btw why are they all so easy?) that you win by blocking trampling creatures such that after lifelink you are at exactly 1 life, and win with Near-Death Experience on your upkeep... I would like to report that this challange is bugged, trample damage can be split how the attacker chooses, any paper game would end up with the player at 2 life and lose on the opponent's next turn...  Please don't create challanges that explicitly highlight bugs...
Is the 100 token limit a 'known issue'? (a Feature?)

I had 80 Zombie tokens (and 6 non-token zombies), endless ranks of the dead triggered and gave me 20 zombie tokens (instead of the 43 it should have), I attacked with a Grave Titan and the attack trigger went off, but didn't give any tokens.

I find it increadibly stupid that there is a challange (btw why are they all so easy?) that you win by blocking trampling creatures such that after lifelink you are at exactly 1 life, and win with Near-Death Experience on your upkeep... I would like to report that this challange is bugged, trample damage can be split how the attacker chooses, any paper game would end up with the player at 2 life and lose on the opponent's next turn...  Please don't create challanges that explicitly highlight bugs...



100 tokens is a limitation of the engine that appears to have carried over from the previous iterations of DotP. (From when infinite turns due to panoptic mirror+time warp and rites of replication+archaeomancer were in the same deck.)

You can also win by just blocking with everything on the 10/10 (the combined toughness of your creatures is 11, so it cannot deal damage to you), and then as everything else is unblocked they deal all their damage to you leaving the damage that you would receive fixed. You have sufficient mana available to boost your life gain from lifelink such that you will end combat on 1hp.

Implementation of the challenge is bad (given that the 'MAY' clause of trample isn't implemented effectively), but there is a solution (3 if you want to be excessively pedantic) that the AI couldn't damage assignment out of.

Robvalue: Copy target bug or glitch. You may choose a new card for the copy...

Will never buy games made by Arena Net again.

Will not buy Duel 2015 until 2HG reinstated.

 

Grei wrote:

Orc_Welfin wrote:
 I've removed content from this thread. 


Nice to know removing content is a company wide policy.
I find it increadibly stupid that there is a challange (btw why are they all so easy?) that you win by blocking trampling creatures such that after lifelink you are at exactly 1 life, and win with Near-Death Experience on your upkeep... I would like to report that this challange is bugged, trample damage can be split how the attacker chooses, any paper game would end up with the player at 2 life and lose on the opponent's next turn...  Please don't create challanges that explicitly highlight bugs...


At least it's not quite as bad as that one Archenemy challenge from D12 where the solution relied on an Oblivion Ring or Faceless Butcher trigger resolving after its controller had left the game.
Opponent had Halcyon Gaze in play.  It was already triggered by another spell when he played Phantasmal Image, chosing to copy the Halcyon Gaze.  Phantasmal Image came into play as Halcyon Gaze as an enchantment, but with the illusion modifiers.

I suppose it kind of makes sense, but it caught me by surprise.
Generally speaking, copy effects only copy the ink on the card, and not any effects that are being applied to it.
My opponent cast Cruel Revival and targeted my Phantasmal Dragon. The Phantasmal Dragon's passive ability resolved and it died, but my opponent still put a card from his graveyard in his hand. Shouldn't Cruel Revival have countered itself because there was no legal target?



The creature in the  graveyard is still a legal target, and it has no "THEN return a creature" clause, which, I'm pretty sure, mean's that it's two seperate, independent targetted effects. There should be a rule guru to know the proper answer, but that's my take. 



For a spell to be countered by the game rules all of the spells targets need to be illegal when it resolves. In the case of Phantasmal Dragon and Cruel Revival the dragon became an invalid target, but the zombie card in the graveyard was still a legal target so the spell resolved normaly
Sealed Campaign.

I attack with Scourge of Valkas (+ bunch of irrelevant other creatures), and after blockers are declared (NOT scourge), Jace plays Turn to Frog on my Scourge of Valkas. I had nothing in hand that I could spend red mana on, so I figured I'd just pump it for fun. I pump it to 11/4, then Turn to Frog resolves and turns my Scourge of Valkas into a 1/1... but I retained the +7/+0 that I pumped it with, keeping it as a 8/1.

Since both abilities are "until end of turn" and his spell resolved last, I should have had a 1/1 with nothing ? Or is that a different layer again ? (I know counters or enchantments would be, but... argh... rules...)

Seems like the same issue that Ovinize has ? Ish ?

[edit] This was not a bug, see explanation below from Puzzled 
Neither is an issue. At least not in this scenario.

Turn to Frog and Ovinize apply in Layer 7b, Firebreathing applies in Layer 7c. The effects don't interact with each other at all.


"You should never try to explain the layer system to someone unless they're studying for a judge exam, or you hate them" -- MTG Rules Manager, Matt Tabak
You're right - I looked it up too, my daughter finally left me alone long enough to do a search.

Soooo many layers  
Ive only read page 1, so if this has been answered in the subsequent pages..just ignore this post.

2)
I've got an Aegis Angel on the table with Indestructibility on it.
I block with it, and my opponent plays Turn to Frog . My Aegis gets turned, and dies from the damage. The Indestructibility was still attached, so why was it killed?



This was posted on page one.. and the replies to it were, essentially, that Indestructibility has been changed in M14 and it is now a keyword, and so it can be removed.

Im still confused on this though, because his Aegis Angel had Indestructibility attached to it through an enchantment. So, to me, it seems like when his angel was turned into a frog, that frog would then have the enchantment attached to it, thereby making it an indestructible frog. 

If the angel had indestructibility without an attached enchantment, I would understand it going away... but the Turn to Frog card only targets the Angel, not the angel and everything attached to the angel, correct?

I mean, I used turn to frog on a hydra with five +1/+1 counters on it, and it became a 6/6 frog.  If counters can carry over, then I dont see why an attached enchantment wouldnt.
This goes even further into the layer system (see my previous post, especially the part about not explaining it).

Because Turn to Frog and Indestructibility are both applied in layer 6, and neither is dependant on the other, their effects are applied in Timestamp order. Indestructibility was on the field first, so it gives the enchanted creature the Indestructible keyword ability; then Turn to Frog was played, and it removes all abilities, including Indestructible. The enchantment is still attached and having its effect, but its effect is also being undone.

In the case of Turn to Frog vs the Hydra, the Hydra has a base toughness of 0/0, which is the starting point before continuous effects are applied. In Layer 7b, Turn to Frog changes it from a 0/0 to a 1/1, effectively making it stronger. Then, finally, the effects from the +1/+1 counters are applied in Layer 7d, giving it +5/+5, resulting in a 6/6. The fact that the counters were there first doesn't matter, because their effect is always applied last*

*Technically, effects that switch P/T are always applied last, but that's not relevant in this scenario.
In short, timestamp matters here. If you play a Mind Control on my creature and I Mind Control it back a turn later, it will be mine, even though it has your Mind Control on it.

Turn to Frog/Ovinize will only remove abilities on creatures (which Indestructible became in M14). Under the old rules the creature would still be indestructible. Auras which grant abilities usually use the word "has" (Lifelink, Quicksilver Dagger). If you would Turn to Frog a creature enchanted with Elder Mastery then the creature would only lose flying, the buff and discard would still be there.

EDIT: Note that the official card text on Indestructibility is still the old one, because M14 wasn't released yet. After that it will probably get an errata
Priority Question:

1. During Opp. Main Phase 1: Opponent plays Oracle of Mul Daya
2. Spell Resolves Oracle hits the field. Top card of deck reveals and is a Forest.
-----
3. Opp plays Forest off deck using Oracle's Ability

I wanted to use the instant Last Gasp to kill the oracle before it gets the chance to use it's ability, is this possible?
In Paper Magic, no. Once the Oracle resolves, the active player (your opponent) receives Priority, and you won't have the opportunity to play Last Gasp until your opponent passes priority to you.

Duels, however, doesn't use priority. If you're fast enough, you'd be able to kill your opponent's Oracle this way.
Priority Question:

1. During Opp. Main Phase 1: Opponent plays Oracle of Mul Daya
2. Spell Resolves Oracle hits the field. Top card of deck reveals and is a Forest.
-----
3. Opp plays Forest off deck using Oracle's Ability

I wanted to use the instant Last Gasp to kill the oracle before it gets the chance to use it's ability, is this possible?



In Duels of the planeswalkers, perhaps. In paper magic, you would never be given priority until active player decides to do so.

So once it resolves, priority is in the hands of the active player and he can play the land as he pleases.

Doing what you suggest, "could" be considered bad sport. Expect it to happen alot in DoTP, it was definately possible in DoTP 2009, 2012, 2013... 
Very strange interaction with Protean Hydra.  He swung with a 4/4 Protean, I blocked with a 7/7 Primordial Hydra (equipped with Swiftfoot Boots and enchanted with Oakenform.. so technically a 4/4 Hydra with +3/+3).  He used Giant Growth on the Protean, and I used Giant Growth on the Primordial (so now we're talking his 7/7 verus my 10/10).  Combat resolved, with my Primordial at 10/3 and his Protean at... 3/3?  Then of course he got double counters at end of turn..

Now that I think of it, the creature got 3/3 added to its 7/7 from counters, had all the damage nullified and all the counters removed, but was still 3/3.  Sheesh.. this thing is even more powerful than I thought.  Luckily the counter rule only counts counters removed and not damage nullified (so above example ended turn 8/8 instead of 20/20).

Also, a more obvious interaction, but deathtouch doesn't work on it either.