D&D Next Feedback: Playtest Survey (06/26)

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D&D Next Feedback
Playtest Survey (06/26)

By D&D Team

Dear Dungeons & Dragons® Playtester,  We hope you’ve been using and enjoying the June 7th D&D® Next playtest material. Today, we have a new survey, and we’re eager for your feedback. This survey focuses on content that was updated in the June 7th playtest packet, such as spells, core rules, and the additional races. We've also included a few questions about recent in-store playtests, including Vault of the Dracolich™ and Storm over Neverwinter™. It's essential that we hear from you, so please take a few minutes to let us know how the playtest is going for you.

Talk about this Survey here.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

As far as i know those in store events are a purly north american thing.
Yet as reason why you did not attend them rhwew is no option to say becouse i'm not in north america 
I didn't think this survey was as well done as some previous ones. I didn't have as much space to give feedback as I would have liked (250 characters max?). Therefore, I had to shorten my responses; sometimes to the point of not getting to say all I wanted to.
I liked the survey, but wish the comment sections allowed for more. I didn't see a comment section for the race section. Did I just miss it? I would have liked to say why I liked or did not like certain traits. I think the why's are important.
Did I miss the survey for the previous packet or did they not put one out?

Big Model: Creative Agenda
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Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
The last survey I remember had a lot of feedback that it was too long. Maybe they tried to scale it back? Maybe they needed to scale it back to ease the load of gathering the data?
My two copper.
I really wanted to tell them I LOVE the gnome mechanic for well mechanics, but would love to see more then just three little tricks (timer and pocket watch) and also ways for rogues of other races to gain them. I love the idea, but want to see it used ALOT more.

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Definitely needed a comment space for the races. I could not adequately get across that I don't like keen senses at all, not just that I don't like the half-elf having it.
I gave them a piece of my mind. I was civil about it.

Stop the H4TE

As far as i know those in store events are a purly north american thing.
Yet as reason why you did not attend them rhwew is no option to say becouse i'm not in north america 


They aren't. I live in the UK (midlands) and there are two local(ish) stores that run encounters and game days. You just need to find a local toy or hobby store and get them to register with WotC. I know some book shops that also run them in other parts of the country.

I did mine this morning.  I let them know my dissapointment so far.  Hoping the next packet will prove to meet the expectations Mearls set in his posts, which don't sound half bad.  Won't know til I see them.  Execution tends to use Sneak Attack on my expectations though...I'm wondering if I'm just a hard-to-please gamer? 

As to the in-store games, I said I haven't played them, because the system is not something I care to subject myself to repeatedly at this stage.  The games with friends were enough to tell me that much.  Still, it got me thinking ,perhaps I should go to more effort to be more fair, and try with different groups, get more feedback from others too, see what I might be missing.  This afternoon I stopped at a game store that is on my commute. 

Their store doesn't host it.  Seems Wizards is particularly inflexible with days of the week, but also, there's zero interest in D&D at that store.  PF has totally replaced DnD in their local area (!).  Clerk said they've had ONE D&D group on their regular game night, but that group has not been in in awhile.

So, that adds a new answer from me...my "local store" does not have it as an option!

I had tried 4e encounters sessions in another town last summer.  Not so sure I want to go re-experience the DMs that were running it there, even for playtesting.  Plus: work night.  Not often up for that. 

I was disappointed that I couldn't comment on the races and that I could only pick 3 spells to like/dislike. There are so many spells that need to be fixed, I couldn't possibly comment on them all. It would have been nice if I could have at least checked the box next to all of the problem spells, so that they'd at least be flagged for review.
Did not say that much. Told them 2nd ed was my favorite edition, D&DN felt most like 3rd ed and for something rom a previous edition I mentioned class based saving throw bonus. Did not care about the races, spells etc that much as they will probably change anyway. 
They should really require you to login or enter your email or something to take this. As it is, you can just take the survey over and over as long as you use a different device or ip address. I can see the hardcore 24/7 edition warriors (you know the ones, the ones that have driven 75-90% of the forum traffic away) on here voting dozens of times each. I just took it three times in five minutes, just to prove a point. Two points, actually.

1. There is no way in hell that there are 100k unique people filling these out. I would say the real number is less than half of that. Maybe even a third of that.

2. The survey results are obviously skewed and inaccurate.

I would stop short of calling the survey results a complete and total sham, but they need to at least attempt to prevent multiple voting. Especially considering how simple it is to do so.
Yes, my buddy fills out the surveys several times a day from his work PC, doesn't seem right.

I have warned them about people using the surveys to skew things. 
Speaking of forums where the posters have scared people away the 4E forums seem very quiet these days.

 


That is a peculiar thing for you to say, considering you yourself have been posting over there the last few days, with your unintentionally hilarious, always off-topic, crudely worded "education" posts.

The truth is, the 4e forums are better than they have ever been. All of the 3x trolls that used to invade it are here now, and you guys were even good enough to take the worst of the 4e posters. The 4e forums used to be over-moderated; now threads can marinade in there for a minute without anyone being to anal about it. Hell, I am personally thankful everyday that the 5e forums are such a hellhole.





 I posted on a thread I suspect was a troll post where a person did not understand the differences between the editions. If you have never played D&D before and pick  up a book with D&D on it or AD&D.  
Right, you have been visiting and posting in the 4e forums lately. Nothing wrong with that, just dont act disingenuous. Anyway its off-topic (and its my own fault, I shouldnt have commented on the mass exodus occuring in the 5e forums). The point is, you can vote over and over in these surveys. Hopefully WOTC attempts to remedy this. Maybe they dont want to; maybe it is better to be able to throw out big numbers like "100k".
They should really require you to login or enter your email or something to take this. As it is, you can just take the survey over and over as long as you use a different device or ip address. I can see the hardcore 24/7 edition warriors (you know the ones, the ones that have driven 75-90% of the forum traffic away) on here voting dozens of times each. I just took it three times in five minutes, just to prove a point. Two points, actually.

1. There is no way in hell that there are 100k unique people filling these out. I would say the real number is less than half of that. Maybe even a third of that.

2. The survey results are obviously skewed and inaccurate.

I would stop short of calling the survey results a complete and total sham, but they need to at least attempt to prevent multiple voting. Especially considering how simple it is to do so.


This, so many times.  Obvious marketing is obvious, because they sure as hell aren't getting meaningful data when there's a significant risk of legitimate commenters failing to fill out the form due to crashes or lack of time making you unable to return, and a similarly serious risk of people filling it in several times by changing PCs or just deleting cookies.

Why on earth it's not linked to the email account you have to sign up with to download the playtest, I have no idea.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
SWSE is a different game and genre, doesn't have healing surges, powers are optional, and it retains 3.5 multiclassing. It is more or less built on the 3.5 chasis uses some 4th ed elements and had the primary spellcasters stripped out.

 My own homebrew D&D is built on the 4th ed chasis with new classes plugged in and it uses SWSE BAB  and AD&D multiple attacks. Also uses 4th ed weapon properties SWSE rogue and Fighter and AD&D style spellcasters. Fighters also have base saves of +5/+4/+4 fort/ref/will and I capped spell DCs and ability scores at 20.

 I looked at BECMI, 2nd ed, Myth and Magic, 3.5 and Pathfinder and 4th ed and chose the last one to build off and plugged in previous edition concepts and some ideas from D&DN. Clerics use spheres and domains and are limted to level 7 spells again.

 4th ed was quite good in a lot of ways once you rip out chapter 4 in the PHB. I have also been using 4th ed monsters in D&DN, M&M and homebrew I just cut their hit points down drastically and plug in the right save if I'm in a hurry. 

 Stripped down the 4th ed chasis and SWSE are very similar and SWSE was the pinnacle of d20 design IMHO. They should have used that instead of 4th ed in 2008. 

They could copy/paste whole swaths of the rulebook into 4e and its practically identical.




No, let's come back from Fantasy Land.
They could copy/paste whole swaths of the rulebook into 4e and its practically identical.




No, let's come back from Fantasy Land.


I am guessing your hate for 4e is what is keeping you from seeing the obvious similarities. From my perspective, yalls love for Saga Star Wars weakens your arguments against 4e and makes you seem hypocritical.
Saga uses 3.5 style classes and is a differnet genre. It is also fun and 4th ed is not is a critical difference. I also like D6 Star Wars and that is skills based and in some ways its better than Saga.
Did not say that much. Told them 2nd ed was my favorite edition, D&DN felt most like 3rd ed and for something rom a previous edition I mentioned class based saving throw bonus. Did not care about the races, spells etc that much as they will probably change anyway. 



I totaly forgot to mention about class based saves.   That's one part of D&D Next I don't like too much.  


I gave them a piece of my mind. I was civil about it.



Glad there are people like me to warn them about people such as yourself.



Yep, because if you didn't like it, you must have been trolling...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I can honestly say I have not voted multiple times. I suppose my wife responding may have counted for voting twice.  She voted 3rd ed I voted 2nd ed. If the 4th ed posters are voting multiple times and still can't break 10% it says something. Speaking of forums where the posters have scared people away the 4E forums seem very quiet these days. It has been out of print for a year but AD&D forums are still active after 13+ years. 

 The Realms forums are even more dead than the 4th ed forums. Funny that after you destroy the Realms. 



4E fans like playing by the rules, its the previous edition crowd that like to break the rules...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
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Taking the survey multiple times?  Sounds like a conspiracy theory.

The survey isn't short, and isn't exactly fun to fill out.  Fill out two or ten or even a hundred extra surveys and you're wasting a lot of time to skew things trivially, because they are getting a hundred-thousand responses.  
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I can honestly say I have not voted multiple times. I suppose my wife responding may have counted for voting twice.  She voted 3rd ed I voted 2nd ed. If the 4th ed posters are voting multiple times and still can't break 10% it says something. Speaking of forums where the posters have scared people away the 4E forums seem very quiet these days. It has been out of print for a year but AD&D forums are still active after 13+ years. 

 The Realms forums are even more dead than the 4th ed forums. Funny that after you destroy the Realms. 



4E fans like playing by the rules, its the previous edition crowd that like to break the rules...




That's just how the game was written to be played.   The 2e DMG said,  "To have the most fun playing the AD&D game, don't rely only on the rules."


Saga uses 3.5 style classes and is a differnet genre. It is also fun and 4th ed is not is a critical difference. I also like D6 Star Wars and that is skills based and in some ways its better than Saga.



Nyeh 4th edition is fun and Saga is an unknown with questionable elements from 3.x ;p...blatantly subjective.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I would stop short of calling the survey results a complete and total sham, but they need to at least attempt to prevent multiple voting. Especially considering how simple it is to do so.

I don't know about anyone else, but I only vote once. I consider myself to be a vocal and opinionated member of this forum, and as such, my views cannot be adequately expressed by just checking boxes - even if I wanted to defraud the system by voting multiple times, it would take too much effort to submit meaningful feedback more than once (or twice if I had a ton of free time on my hands).

As for people who just go through and check boxes, I doubt that they care enough to do so more than two or three times. Sure, you might get the occasional example of someone who submits thirty times, and that might skew the numerical results in some meaningful way, but once you balance out how rare those people are with the likelihood that a lot of them are just negating others who are doing the same thing on the other side, I'm fairly confident that the end result is close enough to the truth to be representative.

The metagame is not the game.
Well, I just voiced my severe displeasure with the current state of the game. Here is to things looking better next packet!
did all you guys who voted more than once change your IP and clean your browser each time?


I only voted once. I don't care enough to try to cheat the system.

Stop the H4TE

I don't know about anyone else, but I only vote once.


I have no doubt in your integrity. We can only speculate as to how many people vote more than once, but I think its safe to say that everyone wants the survey results to reflect a real vote. Nobody seems to be for fraud or for loopholes in their survey system. So, the point is, even though you don't personally vote more than once, and even though you do not personally imagine that there are a lot of people that take the surveys more than once, that is not a logical argument against there being some simple checks put in place. I mean, with these little online survey programs-I don't even think it would cost them extra money to require an email address.

I don't know about anyone else, but I only vote once.


I have no doubt in your integrity. We can only speculate as to how many people vote more than once, but I think its safe to say that everyone wants the survey results to reflect a real vote. Nobody seems to be for fraud or for loopholes in their survey system. So, the point is, even though you don't personally vote more than once, and even though you do not personally imagine that there are a lot of people that take the surveys more than once, that is not a logical argument against there being some simple checks put in place. I mean, with these little online survey programs-I don't even think it would cost them extra money to require an email address.




I just checked, it wont let me use my laptop again, so it must save IP addresses already. I have an iphone, a desktop, a tablet and a laptop, and a nook. so I could useing the current set up vote 5 times, inless I want to go over to my sisters house and use her laptop and nook, that makes 7. I have 9 current email addresses (and can make 100 more on yahoo and gmail if I want), so there would not make any diff if they asked for email address and IP, but it would be way more abusable if just email... so I am unsure what you want to do here...

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

I don't know about anyone else, but I only vote once.


I have no doubt in your integrity. We can only speculate as to how many people vote more than once, but I think its safe to say that everyone wants the survey results to reflect a real vote. Nobody seems to be for fraud or for loopholes in their survey system. So, the point is, even though you don't personally vote more than once, and even though you do not personally imagine that there are a lot of people that take the surveys more than once, that is not a logical argument against there being some simple checks put in place. I mean, with these little online survey programs-I don't even think it would cost them extra money to require an email address.




I just checked, it wont let me use my laptop again, so it must save IP addresses already. I have an iphone, a desktop, a tablet and a laptop, and a nook. so I could useing the current set up vote 5 times, inless I want to go over to my sisters house and use her laptop and nook, that makes 7. I have 9 current email addresses (and can make 100 more on yahoo and gmail if I want), so there would not make any diff if they asked for email address and IP, but it would be way more abusable if just email... so I am unsure what you want to do here...



Ok I am not a cpu expert, but the first surveys just came thru email, you didnt get a link like Plague put up except in your email, and once that survey was run, you could not run it again even if you got on your email with another device. Someone may be able to get around it but it discouraged it. Just putting up a link like this, like you say you yourself could vote 9 times.  

You get around it by making 600 gmail accounts and have them all subscribe to be playtesters. Then you just have each one answer the survey.

~bobinchese, who feels sorry for the person with enough time on their hands to do this 
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
Did it have a section on the dice they're giving out to Encounters/Game Day? Because I have a few things to say about them.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

What spells did everyone flag as good/bad? Personally, I picked out Spare the Dying, Call Lightning, and Wish as problem spells and Hunter's Mark, Thatamurgy, and the new Bless as my favorites.
Besides the elimination of fraud, forcing participants to log in would actually be extremely useful for data analysis. Right now they can't tell who hates the same things about every playtest and who never complains about anything. They could make a change and most of the people who liked it before could hate it and everyone who hated it would love it, but they wouldn't actually be able to tell that from the data.

Because they can't link survey results to a single (anonymous) set they can't use comparitive statistics, which are the basis of a great number of marketing diagnostics. That's the real reason I question the validity of the survey: It's not actually conducted in a way that would allow them to effectively test anything beyond an approximation of general popularity.
Yeah, I am not getting the arguments for leaving it as is, but all I can do is point it out.