32 point questions

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Just so I get this right in my make up of a char I will be the only one using the 32 point system everyone else has rolled there stats and got what they got but after the DM killing 1char fron cheating which is in a different post and the other dying from a stupid roll of 1 for system shock I have decided to make this guy. Which is we're the 32 point system comes in just so I have this right all stats start at 10 then to go to a 12 that would cost a total of 2 points 13 and 14 would be 4 and 6 points 15-16  are 9 and 12 17 is 14 and 18 16 points? Now all of that is before racial bonuses correct ?
Not unless you're using some different point-buy system. This is how the "book" one works:
 - All stats start at 8
 - Raising a stat by costs a number of points equal to the stat's modifier (min 1)
So raising an 8 to a 9 costs 1. Raising a 9 to a 10, and so on, up until 14, costs 1.
Then it costs 2 to go from 14 to 15 or 15 to 16. Then 3, etc.

So, an 8 costs 0, a 10 costs 2, a 12 costs 4, and a 14 costs 6... but then a 16 costs 10, and an 18 costs 16.

This is all written out in the PHB or somewhere, even with the above in a handy table.

Pathfinder, for example, suggests a different system, but even that one isn't what you described there. Yours sounds similar to the above, but different. Are you using a custom system? 
The way I remember it for 3.5 is as follows:
Ability scores start at 8.
Point cost to raise an ability score by 1 = That abilty score's current ability modifier (minimum 1).
Once all points are spent, then apply ability modifiers from race and age.
Optional: If starting at higher levels, then apply other modifiers (such as from level or tome/wish effects).

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

So let me get this straight every stat starts at a negative mod how is this even close to being right I can see it starting at a even keel mod of 0 even with that racial bonuses could lower some mods to negatives now that I can by but negative to start get 32 points half to any one stat would ensure you have a not balanced char indeed because by that system I see something like this


118
2 10
2 14
1 8

This would give you a plus 7 rating a plus 7 rating a a HERO In game would be something you should take and slap yourself for making and breaking this up could make it better but could make it worse too so just to get your char to a 0 rating you need to use 12 points from your 32 is this what you are telling me and if so I need the name of the guy who made this so I can send him a box or marbles because he has surly lost all of his when he made that system or maybe a membership to AA because he must have been drunk that night.
So let me get this straight every stat starts at a negative mod how is this even close to being right


Because no character starts with a zero point buy. The "standard" character has 25 points to spend, and the "typical" result of this is 15/14/13/12/10/8, the "elite array". 

A building is under construction. You see scaffolding, rebar, and foundations, but no walls. Is it appropriate to judge the building as "how is this even close to being right"?

I can see it starting at a even keel mod of 0 even with that racial bonuses could lower some mods to negatives now that I can by but negative to start get 32 points half to any one stat would ensure you have a not balanced char indeed because by that system I see something like this 118 2 10 2 14 1 8 This would give you a plus 7 rating a plus 7 rating a a HERO In game would be something you should take and slap yourself for making and breaking this up could make it better but could make it worse too so just to get your char to a 0 rating you need to use 12 points from your 32 is this what you are telling me and if so I need the name of the guy who made this so I can send him a box or marbles because he has surly lost all of his when he made that system or maybe a membership to AA because he must have been drunk that night.


This makes no sense whatsoever. Please try again with a full keyboard.

The ONE piece of information I can glean from that noise is "just to get your char to a 0 rating you need to use 12 points from your 32".

1) 32 Point-buy is VERY high powered.
2) 12 points out of 32 to remove all penalties isn't all that costly.
3) Many characters do not need high scores in all six ability scores. In fact, for some, certain scores are worthless. A typical wizard doesn't care at all about his Strength, for instance. A Wild Shaping gnome druid with 32 PB can become 6/8/20/8/18/8 and kick ass far beyond what you would normally imagine. For this reason, "simply adding up all the ability modifiers" doesn't tell you anything about how effective the character is going to be.
4) 18s are expensive for a reason

Games are largely exercises in resource management. Go ahead and manage your resources!

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

A) You'll find it in the first chapter of the PHB.
B) Don't get butthurt because it's possible to have a negative modifier. Since it's point but, YOU make the choice on whether it remains negative.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I understand that you need to start some place but to start out as a negative is just foolish a building has to have level ground before you build or it will not be balanced I do not see 32 being all that powerful I really do not I see it being 4 in str not balanced.

So,lets see here then for a char In the 32 point system to have a +1 in all mods he would have to spend 30 points to get all stars to a +1 and have 2 points left over. Right so let us take a human shall we all stats are plus 1 with 2 left over you put one in str and one in dex so you have a 14 in str and dex this for 1 would not allow you to qualify for some very basic feats depending on what class you are taking. 2 this gives you a +2 to your ref save again even at level 1 this is ok but not something to call home about a +2 to hit and damage at level 1 not bad. But the point I can not get away from is you are to be a hero not a semi strong commoner or semi wise intelligent or charismatic commoner you are to be like superman is to the common folk in the comics. Even Batman a normal guy is stronger faster smarter then most commoners yes I understand he got there over time but he had to have some kind of natural ability to allow him to become that way like maybe he was a neutral char at first no negatives to his starting package so say all stats were 10 instead of 8 which is a negative in every area to start .
Would you prefer me to phrase it like this?

All stats start at 10. The same buying rules apply, but you can buy a stat down to 9 or 8 and gain a point. Your point-buy is 20, by the way, not 32.

...because that's exactly the same thing. Whether you're starting at 8 or starting at 10 doesn't really matter. You have the flexibility to have 8s (and when you roll stats, it's usually possible to roll even lower than that) but enough points to make a good array.

The typically Commoner has an array of, what, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8? That's a 15-point buy. Given that odd numbers aren't even worth that much to L1 Commoners, in fact, it's more like 12. By comparison, your 32-point buy is very heroic.

Meanwhile, just because you're a hero doesn't mean you're better in every way than the average person. Do I have to be an Orc to be stupid and have an Int of 8? Are you saying no Human character should ever have stats lower than 10? The point buy system doesn't say your stat have to stay at 8, only that you don't have to raise them above that. That actually does you a favour by letting you dump a stat and put those point elsewhere.

32pb lets me have an array of 8/14/14/18/12/8 which is just great for a slightly surly (8 Cha) Wizard. Hell, I could even go 8/14/16/18/8/8 if I wanted, or something similar. That's even with an 18, which is meant to be rare; something like 16/14/14/14/12/8 is perfectly decent for a melee who needs 13 Int for Combat Expertise. What do you want, 18/18/18?

Besides, that's just how the rules are. If you don't agree with them, go play something different, but the PHB is not exactly confusing on this matter. Like I said, it even has a nice little table and everything. 
Except that's not the way it works; they start at 8 BY THE RULES, so lets say they start at 8. ;)
Seriously, dood; if you don't like it, roll your stats instead of complaining about the rules.

Oh, and your argument about buildings is still perfectly valid: when you're building a skyscraper, you have to dig out a solid foundation first.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Ok so what about starting with a 44 point system or making everything 10 and having 32 points use to up you stats.


So 11 would be 1 point 2 points for 12 4 points for 13 6 points for 14 9 points for 15 12 points for 16 15 points for 17 and 16 points for 18 this make sense? I know ppl will say this probably over powered but that being done you can still only have 1 or 2 18 but you would not have any negative stats you would have even stats with 0's unless you take a race that gives you negatives to a stat so lets say you take an human you. Could have say 18/18/10/10/10/10 but as a elf you could have a 20/18/10/10/10/8 if you maxed out 2 of the 10's an orc would have 2 negatives so they may have to put points into stats to move them up to 10 unless they would like the to have 2 negative mods.
Ok so what about starting with a 44 point system or making everything 10 and having 32 points use to up you stats.


How about accepting that part of the game is that you are not going to be a person with superheroic scores in all six abilities?

Obligatory Lord of the Rings reference!
Aragorn was not particularly strong for a warrior (strong enough, certainly, but his real strength was leadership).
Boromir was not particularly wise. 
Legolas was not particularly charismatic.
Gimli was not particularly nimble.
Sam was not particularly intelligent. 
Frodo was not particularly tough. 

(You'll note I picked characters of races that do not typically have a penalty in the corresponding ability score as well.)


D&D example: Crack open ANY book with non-epic NPCs in it. Look at their ability scores. Case closed.


Seriously, a -1 on one of your ability scores just means "Guys, this isn't my department". (We do not let our 8-Intelligence roguetype do our cartography or solve puzzles; that's the job for the 22-Int psion. Likewise, that 6-Strength psion does not do the heavy lifting; we leave that to our 18-Strength warrior-type.) 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Not saying a negative is bad at all but what I'm saying is starting it at a neutral no negative or positive that I where the over all mod is 0 not -1 and I agree that classes each have their jobs but if you have high negatives you get less HP skills and saves
Again: either accept the rules as written, or con your DM into changing them, or don't use point buy. Complaining does nothing but make you sound like a munchkin.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Not saying a negative is bad at all but what I'm saying is starting it at a neutral no negative or positive that I where the over all mod is 0 not -1 and I agree that classes each have their jobs but if you have high negatives you get less HP skills and saves



That's why you put your points into those stats, if you're that worried about the penalty.  Most melee characters have little use for Charisma, for example (since their skills aren't tailored towards that), so they can afford to have a penalty there;  same goes for spellcasters and Strength.  You can also shore up your saves with items, so you could keep those a little bit lower if you absolutely had to.


Hell, your basic Fighter could completely drop both Cha and Int, since their class skill list is exceedingly small...unless you absolutely have to cross-class.  
Ok so this is what I'm looking at doing

Stats
Str 17 dex 8 con 18 int 12 wis 12 ch 8 dose that work out right
This is before racial additions of course.
Ok so this is what I'm looking at doing Stats Str 17 dex 8 con 18 int 12 wis 12 ch 8 dose that work out right This is before racial additions of course.



that would be the result of a 36 point build...

Perhaps if you told us your character concept you could get a little more guidance out of this topic?
It's a 37-point buy.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Yeah I found that out so I fixed it up so here it is Gold Half Dragon Goliath (stone blessed dwarf) LA 4 Str 28 Dex 6 Con 24 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 10 So what you think of this Ref save will suck will be a -2 to ref saves

I was thinking of either paladin fighter or monk if I go paladin I will change cha and wis scores  
It's a 37-point buy.



Doh! Thought I read a 17 as costing 12 points, it was 13. Starting to think I need glasses.

Anyway, @kingofswing, I would highly suggest dropping half dragon, and if not half dragon, then Goliath as the base race. A high Level Adjustment typically does not lend itself to a high survivability rate. I know the massive ability scores seem like a boon, but you'd be missing out on 4 hit dice which will make your HP a disaster. In addition, you'll have a distinct lack of class abilities, which will give you a distinct lack of options in game. if your interested in being a half dragon, I would suggest the dragon disciple prestige class after about 10-13 levels of dusk blade. Other than that, see if your DM will allow buying off level adjustments and stick with half dragons the only LA. in the racial mix, at least then you'll be able to buy it off pre-epic level.
Buy out is not an option he wants to see what the difference is with he high con that kinda equals out the HD I was looking at a LA 9 with a have dragon Stonechild but 9 is way way way way to much
Buy out is not an option he wants to see what the difference is with he high con that kinda equals out the HD I was looking at a LA 9 with a have dragon Stonechild but 9 is way way way way to much



Not to be overly blunt or crass, but who cares what he wants to see in a character? If he's killed off two of your builds already, I would say play something that you want to play that's within the allowed material, not what he's interested in trying to kill off next.

If you however are interested in the concept, I'd have to give a final warning that the high con score, although beastly, really doesn't make up for the loss of 4 HD. Think of it this way, that theoretical could be 4 levels of warblade (I know your DM generally disallows tome of battle, but this is just a "what if") that gave d12 HD, manuvers, and class features as apposed to monstrously high stats that don't get much use.

Your base attack is going to suffer because of the said lack of hit dice, which is bad since your strength leads you into being a melee based fighter type, and you wont be able to swing your weapon around as many times as a build without the level adjustment (granted with the right builds one hit from a dedicated power attacker, even one with lower base attack, could potentially wipe out most monsters of their level, but charging in every encounter can be impractical, and also boring after a while), and your lack of access to feats can be something of a drain on your ability to do much of anything save for bash people's heads in with a big stick or some such method of carnage.

In this regard, if you're looking for a Str based combatant and don't mind a level adjustment, I would suggest a half-ogre gone war hulk. You'll only have a level adjustment of +2, you'll actually be large sized (with all of it's draw back which are usually minor, and benefits whih frankly can be jsut awesome /awesome reads: spiked chain with a 20 ft. reach/) you can get a base attack of around 8 depending on high high a level you go, and can get a strength easily in the upper 40's along with some rather nasty class features.

If you're still interested in using a shield, there's a feat in players handbook 2 if I'm not mistaken that allows you to daze an opponent after hitting him with a shield bash attack, which uses your strength in order to determine the DC of the save.
Ok so what about starting with a 44 point system or making everything 10 and having 32 points use to up you stats.

Sure, you could do that. You could have free LA, too, or play gestalt.

Starting at 8 gives you the option to have an 8. If you started at 10, everything would have to be 10, minimum. Unless you added some "you can buy down" clause, which is mathematically exactly the same once you adjust your point values to compensate.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about 32 PB before.  Like, ever.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

I did him up as a 32 point system char and the results are posted up top. The half-ogre war hulk is one of my favorite builds and I played it once before then the same DM came out with the rule you can not have large char they are to powerful same thing with my frenzied berserker first thing did not like the fact that rage and frenzy stacked ruled they are the same you only got the highest bonus and all the penalties. 2 did not like the fact of bloodlust the other players did not want to have to use calm emotion on me all the time 3 rd but not last was not conviced that the damage I was doing was the amount that should be allowed even after I showed rules ( not errata) and performed the math in front of him 4th and last the nice feat in BOED that lets you stay in control when you rage he said it did not work when you frenzy even though he said they were the same thing then he ruled out BOED for his games and brought in books that no-one has or will ever use like the wheel of time and the quintacentual ( bad spelling ther I know) chaos mage and a few other just because he likes them. His next game he is running will be from the Everquest books only h says they are more realelistic because of the weapon attack progression my answer to that is very simple dragons are not real this is a game. So I most likely will not play that game or if I do I will make char that die after one hit have to make another a drive him crazy with the revolving door of char.
Gee, you sound like a real joy to game with.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

I did him up as a 32 point system char and the results are posted up top. The half-ogre war hulk is one of my favorite builds and I played it once before then the same DM came out with the rule you can not have large char they are to powerful same thing with my frenzied berserker first thing did not like the fact that rage and frenzy stacked ruled they are the same you only got the highest bonus and all the penalties. 2 did not like the fact of bloodlust the other players did not want to have to use calm emotion on me all the time 3 rd but not last was not conviced that the damage I was doing was the amount that should be allowed even after I showed rules ( not errata) and performed the math in front of him 4th and last the nice feat in BOED that lets you stay in control when you rage he said it did not work when you frenzy even though he said they were the same thing then he ruled out BOED for his games and brought in books that no-one has or will ever use like the wheel of time and the quintacentual ( bad spelling ther I know) chaos mage and a few other just because he likes them. His next game he is running will be from the Everquest books only h says they are more realelistic because of the weapon attack progression my answer to that is very simple dragons are not real this is a game. So I most likely will not play that game or if I do I will make char that die after one hit have to make another a drive him crazy with the revolving door of char.



It simply sounds like either you're aiming for to high of a power level for your DM"s games, or he isn't all that experienced with 3.5 rules, and I'd be willing to wager a bit of both might even be in play.

My simple advice would be to play at his level without poking your build's power level above the rest of the group. Either that, or see about having someone else run a game, or try and fond a new group that syncs well with each other.

As for your build, you have a massive con, you may as well make use of it. I would suggest going fist of the forest from complete champion. It's a 3 level prestige class that gives you your con bonus as a bonus to AC, like the monks wisdom bonus to AC. As a matter of fact, monk is probably the best entry point for the class, with a fighter dip before or after the fact, doesn't really matter too much.

What exactly is your starting level? That would give us some idea of what direction to take with helping, also, what books are allowed?

Also, as a side note I don't believe you qualify to become stone blessed since your creature type would be dragon from your template.
You could be right on the template I will have to look crap crap crap crap crap you are right in that now I have to re look at this
Wow, a guy takes a few days off to perform some community service and he misses a discussion on one of his 'favorite' topics.

Following the basic rules PB 32 is high.  How high?  I may go so far as saying +1 LA equivalent high.  Now PB 32 with a starting point of 10 (ie. PB 44) is DEFINITELY very high.

The standard 'heroic' array is 15,14,13,12,10,8 and equates to PB 25.  Why is there an 8 in there?  That is simply because most heroes have some kind of minor 'flaw' in there abilities which is what the 8 represents; there are often may ways to compensate for that.  If you don't want that one minor 'weakness' PB allows you to take a little bit from somewhere else to compensate; in the standard array just cutting the 15 down to 14 allow that 8 to go to 10 and actually pushes up the net ability modifier by +1 to +6.  PB 28 is often used to represent slightly more heroic characters without causing major shifts in power.

Your basic 'no-heroic' characters or monsters use one of two arrays.  They are either 11x3, 10x3 or 13,12,11,10,9,8.  Both of these NET +0 in ability modifiers with an average ability score of 10.5 which is what rolling 3d6 will average.  If you wanted to do this with Point Buy it is simply PB 15 starting from 8.  Why not start with 10?  If you do how do you get lower scores?  Starting with 10s a non-heroic character would get a total of 3 points to spend on other things which could net a +1 ability modifier although the majority of the character's ability scores will actually be below average as 10 is below average.

As for all of the Template discussion I thought I was already over this in another thread. 
A) You'll find it in the first chapter of the PHB.



It's page 169 of the DMG.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

So let me get this straight every stat starts at a negative mod how is this even close to being right



The overwhelming standard method that is used when rolling randomly for stats is 4d6, drop the lowest.  Without going into details of statistics that is generally going to result in a range of scores between 9 and 16.  But it's still RANDOM so higher and lower spreads are more than possible.  The Point Buy method was devised so that EVERYONE could use the same system to generate their ability scores and nobody would have the capability to have substantially worse or substantially better scores than anyone else.  The "standard" amount of points for the Point Buy method was set to 25 points.  This amount (not coincidentally) allows the recreation of the "Elite Array" set of scores in 3E of 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15.  [4E uses a better set of scores for a standard array of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16.  For point buy it begins with scores of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 and allows 22 purchase points standard.]   That set of scores - and the standard 25 point amount for Point Buy - is thus generally deemed as ADEQUATE for a good game of D&D as it mimics closely the results of the standard random generation method.  It is thus NOT illogical that Point Buy begins with scores of 8 and expects you to buy up from that point.  The goal is NOT to eliminate all possible penalties, the goal is simply to produce consistent results for players without characters being OVER- or UNDER-powered for the campaign the DM intends.

If, as a DM, you wanted a game where PC's have substantially better scores, but you still want to be sure nobody is going to be overwhelmed or underwhelmed by the scores for other players then you can increase the numbers seen in the Elite Array, OR you can increase the number of points allowed for a Point Buy.  32 points for Point Buy then being considered VERY high powered.  However, character generation methods were also always intended to be set by the DM, they are not supposed to be a menu that players get to choose from because the results produced by various methods are obviously going to vary a LOT.  The purpose of using point buy or an array is entirely wasted if everyone else at the table is using random methods, just as rolling randomly is beside the point if everyone else is using Point Buy.  If players aren't all using the same method it is certain that the DM either just doesn't care or is VERY uninformed about what is supposed to be happening here.

What YOU want out of a character generation method, what that method was INTENDED to do within a D&D game, and what is actually intended by your DM are all in conflict here.  If you as a player are being allowed to use any method YOU like to generate your ability scores then you may as well just pick them out of thin air.  No rolling, no point buy, just write down the numbers you want.  That will ultimately have the same impact for everyone involved.

 

Old School: It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.

My 1E Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/Building%20D&D/buildingdnd.htm

"Who says I can't?" "The man in the funny hat..."

The overwhelming standard method that is used when rolling randomly for stats is 4d6, drop the lowest.  Without going into details of statistics that is generally going to result in a range of scores between 9 and 16.  But it's still RANDOM so higher and lower spreads are more than possible.  The Point Buy method was devised so that EVERYONE could use the same system to generate their ability scores and nobody would have the capability to have substantially worse or substantially better scores than anyone else.  The "standard" amount of points for the Point Buy method was set to 25 points.  This amount (not coincidentally) allows the recreation of the "Elite Array" set of scores in 3E of 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15.  [4E uses a better set of scores for a standard array of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16.  For point buy it begins with scores of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 and allows 22 purchase points standard.]   That set of scores - and the standard 25 point amount for Point Buy - is thus generally deemed as ADEQUATE for a good game of D&D as it mimics closely the results of the standard random generation method.  It is thus NOT illogical that Point Buy begins with scores of 8 and expects you to buy up from that point.  The goal is NOT to eliminate all possible penalties, the goal is simply to produce consistent results for players without characters being OVER- or UNDER-powered for the campaign the DM intends.


Just a minor addendum to a great post: 4d6 drop lowest is a random distribution, yes, but some outcomes are more likely than others. And the most likely outcome of 4d6 drop lowest happens to be 15/14/13/12/10/8 - the elite array itself. (It also allows much better or worse rolls at the tails of the distribution,  and avoiding that is one of the big advantages of a point-buy system.)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I agree with everything you said temp but there is one added flavour my DM likes to do roll 4D6 if you role any ones re-roll them if you roll a two re-roll the first 2 that is rolled on that dice. If you roll a 2 the first time you re-roll it If it is a 1 re-roll again if it becomes a 2 you are stuck with it. So you see getting high stats to start with my DM is not a hard thing to do at all.
I agree with everything you said temp but there is one added flavour my DM likes to do roll 4D6 if you role any ones re-roll them if you roll a two re-roll the first 2 that is rolled on that dice. If you roll a 2 the first time you re-roll it If it is a 1 re-roll again if it becomes a 2 you are stuck with it. So you see getting high stats to start with my DM is not a hard thing to do at all.


When you told me that system before you left out the "reroll the first 2" bit. I'm NOT repeating the statistics for that again. Your DM seems to like juggernauts that the game simply wasn't designed to account for. Try building a monster using that method. Monster ability scores are all 10 or 11 before racial modifiers. Now plug in your scores. See if you want to fight that thing.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I agree with everything you said temp but there is one added flavour my DM likes to do roll 4D6 if you role any ones re-roll them if you roll a two re-roll the first 2 that is rolled on that dice. If you roll a 2 the first time you re-roll it If it is a 1 re-roll again if it becomes a 2 you are stuck with it. So you see getting high stats to start with my DM is not a hard thing to do at all.

Oh, your DM doesn't use standard rolled stats but instead uses super powered arrays that I'm guessing will easily top a normal 32 point buy.

Re-rolling 1s may seem so innocent but it dramatically boosts the stat arrays.  If you also get to reroll a 2 from the initial roll things just become truely insane.  Instead of rolling "4d6 drop the lowest" you are now essentially using "roll 4d4 drop the lowest and then add +6" as you apparently can't have a 1 and rerolling the first set of 2's should leave you with a 3 or better more often than not as you'd reroll a follow up 1 but stop on a 3 or better.

For a single die where 1s are rerolled and an initial 2 is rerolled you get the following possible outcomes:
1:  NEVER =
2:  1/6 (chance initial die lands on 2) x 1/6 (chance rerolled 2 lands on 2) + 1/6 x 1/6 (chance of rolling a 1 rerolling into a 2) = 2/36 = 1/18.  If you roll 4 dice and drop the lowest your odds of getting two 2s so you must keep one are 1/324.  

Come to think of it your odds do get a little better as your rolled 1 may still continue to roll 1 giving you another 1/(6^N) for each additional time a 1 is rolled.  This means I should add another +1/216 that you get a 2 after rolling two 1s and +1/1296 if you roll 3 consecutive 1s.  These aren't going to add up very quickly.

3, 4, 5, or 6:  If your odds of ending up with a 2 are 1/18 these four possiblies cover the remaining 17/18 for a 17/72 (23.6%) chance each.

It's not quite rolling a 1d4 and adding +2 but it's pretty darn close especially when you get to drop the lowest of the four dice which has a 0.3% chance of being a 2.


With a stat array like that your power is higher than the game assumes which means you should be treated as if you have some kind of LA and/or all the monsters you face need to gain a similar ability boost to compensate for your improved scores.
SteveO you have way to much time on your hands to figure all that out but it gave me a good laugh. Now you see why I say with attributes I kind of have to roll them but I real do not want to for this char so I kinda want to find a happy medium. A 32 point system will leave me handicapped from all the rest but rolling I prity much will have a walking wall. I'm trying to come up with a point system that would be about middle I was thinking of maybe 36 or 40 I think they would be almost middle kind of what do you think.


Char will be a Goliath druid. Speaking of the char if I have the powerful build wild shape it states that you are treated as one size larger so if you turn into large creature are you considered huge and improved natural attack makes it gargantuan with Warshaper make it colossal ? I think this math is right ?
SteveO you have way to much time on your hands to figure all that out but it gave me a good laugh. Now you see why I say with attributes I kind of have to roll them but I real do not want to for this char so I kinda want to find a happy medium. A 32 point system will leave me handicapped from all the rest but rolling I prity much will have a walking wall. I'm trying to come up with a point system that would be about middle I was thinking of maybe 36 or 40 I think they would be almost middle kind of what do you think.

Do whatever you want but 36 or 40 point buy sounds really high. Why not give everyone 18/18/18/18/18/18 to start with and be done with it?

Char will be a Goliath druid. Speaking of the char if I have the powerful build wild shape it states that you are treated as one size larger so if you turn into large creature are you considered huge and improved natural attack makes it gargantuan with Warshaper make it colossal ? I think this math is right ?


You lose Powerful Build when you Wildshape I think, as it's a racial ability. Unless you're referring to something I don't know, you're not talking about the Goliath Druid racial substitution levels.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

@Roger: I think it's a feat in either RoS or CD called Powerful Wild Shape that allows you to keep Powerful Build while Wild Shaped.
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User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Draco is correct it is a feat

Now looking through sandstorm I found a race that is very interesting the crucian this race is a LA 2 but has the following str+4 dex-2 con+6 cha I think is -2 get no natural attacks or spell like abilities but has a nasty +8 natural armour fav class is druid. Now what would you say crucian or Goliath druid sandstorm is not on the list but DM is prity open to races from all over.

This to date is the highest con str natural AC bonuses I have seen for anything lower then a +3
If you were reading Sandstorm, didn't you look at Dustform creature then? Wink