Throw and Stab Scout

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I was thinking of doing a Human Throw and Stab scout

We are starting at level 4 and so far I am using a +1 Hungry Gouge using Wrist Razors to give me an offhand light

Is this allowed? If yes

I chose 18 str & 18 dex for starting stats (I have a 13 left which I am putting in CON for now for more HP)

I chose Expertise and Gouge as my feats so far which puts me at
+11 2d6+1 on the throw (which doesn't matter too much honestly)
+11 2d6+5 on the MBA
+11 2d6+5 on the DWA 

+whatever stance I am in

Will I be able to compete to the more traditional DPS's like Rogue and Barbarian with this? Can I make this even stronger? 
Wrist Razors won't satisify the "in the off-hand" requirement for Flashing Blade Mastery. So -1 to hit.

I'd encourage you to read the Scout handbook, if you haven't.

Is it allowed? Some say yes, others say no. Definitively you can't use your gouge for your Dual Weapon Attack (it specifies you need to use an off-hand weapon). Your DM might not let you use your wrist razors for it either if you're using a two-handed weapon (though he might so ask him).


There's other options as well, like a Farbond Spell 1-handed blade, A Drawven Thrower 1-handed axe/hammer, a Cahulaks would be good and economic (plus reach isnt too bad) but wouldn't give you your Scout attack bonus, maybe a trident.


You could get a Drawven Thrower Battleaxe (1d10) and Gauntlet Axe (1d8+1AC) with whatever enchantment you want (say Frost), and use the Gauntlet Axe for MBAs and Dual Weapon Attacks. It's feat efficient at least and it's basically the highest die you'd get on an off-hand, plus a bonus to AC. Or you could go Battleaxe & handaxe, almost as good if not better and they could both be enchanted with whatever you wanted instead of wasting an enchantment on making it throwable.


If you wanted light blades, you could go...Farbond Rapier and a short sword, but you'd be with a 1d6 on your MBA and your Dual Weapon Attack. Die size matters less as you go up in level. More important is to not be doing MBAs and DWAs with a poorly enchanted weapon I'd say.

Wrist Razors won't satisify the "in the off-hand" requirement for Flashing Blade Mastery. So -1 to hit.

I'd encourage you to read the Scout handbook, if you haven't.



This make little sense, no reason for them to bother creating the Wrist Razor weapon as a whole if not for this and other similar purpose


Is it allowed? Some say yes, others say no. Definitively you can't use your gouge for your Dual Weapon Attack (it specifies you need to use an off-hand weapon). Your DM might not let you use your wrist razors for it either if you're using a two-handed weapon (though he might so ask him).


There's other options as well, like a Farbond Spell 1-handed blade, A Drawven Thrower 1-handed axe/hammer, a Cahulaks would be good and economic (plus reach isnt too bad) but wouldn't give you your Scout attack bonus, maybe a trident.


You could get a Drawven Thrower Battleaxe (1d10) and Gauntlet Axe (1d8+1AC) with whatever enchantment you want (say Frost), and use the Gauntlet Axe for MBAs and Dual Weapon Attacks. It's feat efficient at least and it's basically the highest die you'd get on an off-hand, plus a bonus to AC. Or you could go Battleaxe & handaxe, almost as good if not better and they could both be enchanted with whatever you wanted instead of wasting an enchantment on making it throwable.


If you wanted light blades, you could go...Farbond Rapier and a short sword, but you'd be with a 1d6 on your MBA and your Dual Weapon Attack. Die size matters less as you go up in level. More important is to not be doing MBAs and DWAs with a poorly enchanted weapon I'd say.




This make sense, if I am consider wrist razor for my offhand for Flashing Blade, I should consider it my offhand for DWA as well droping my damage for that attack to +10 1d4+4, which is a ton less

and there are massive side penalities, like losing my Arm slot so no Iron Armbands or Quickhits and as you said my weapon enchantment is not very powerful
Wrist Razors won't satisify the "in the off-hand" requirement for Flashing Blade Mastery. So -1 to hit.

I'd encourage you to read the Scout handbook, if you haven't.



This make little sense, no reason for them to bother creating the Wrist Razor weapon as a whole if not for this and other similar purpose.

On the contrary, wrist razors almost certainly weren't designed so that people can use a gouge for two-weapon powers.

When you choose to live by RAW to exploit something, you have to follow the rest of the rules, even when they contradict what you want to do. Whether the rules make sense or not doesn't matter - a fact you are already exploiting.
Wrist Razors won't satisify the "in the off-hand" requirement for Flashing Blade Mastery. So -1 to hit.

I'd encourage you to read the Scout handbook, if you haven't.



This make little sense, no reason for them to bother creating the Wrist Razor weapon as a whole if not for this and other similar purpose.

On the contrary, wrist razors almost certainly weren't designed so that people can use a gouge for two-weapon powers.

When you choose to live by RAW to exploit something, you have to follow the rest of the rules, even when they contradict what you want to do. Whether the rules make sense or not doesn't matter - a fact you are already exploiting.



No

My point is, it is designed so people can use off hand for different thing, so off hand 'hand' is open for other thing

Which is why it use Arm Slot, and not Off hand Slot 
Things are simple if you drop the wrist razor idea.

To get your class bonuses and not go all over the place with expertise feats,
1) you need to either pick axes or light blades.
2) you need to have one which has the off-hand property

Off-hand axes: Gauntlet axe, handaxe
Off-hand light blades worth your time: dagger, short sword (1d6)

3) you need to have a throwable one

Throwing Axes: handaxe, Drawven Thrower Battleaxe (Waraxe aint worth the feat)
Throwing Light blades: dagger, Farbond Rapier (1d8)


So it's either:
1) Gauntlet Axe & Drawven Thrower Battle Axe (Gauntlet Axe costs a feat)
2) Battleaxe & Handaxe
3) Rapier & Dagger
4) Short Sword & Farbond Rapier
5) Drawven Thrower Double Axe (1d10s both sides)
6) Farbond Double Sword (1d6s, +1 AC, costs a feat)


That's pretty much it. If you pick axes, you're at -2 to hit as compared to light blades since axes have a lower proficiency bonus and you dont get the +1 from your class. You're better off going light blade, especially long term.

Long term you'll want to rely on your static damage bonuses, so you'll probably go something like frost dagger + frost rapier.
Thank you very much DateOfLies, I will probably keep it simple as you say then
I edited in a few more things in my above post.

Also if you're going this route, this might be a potentially interesting feat for you: Midnight Blade Student (lets throw & stab target reflex instead of AC when you use a light blade).
No

My point is, it is designed so people can use off hand for different thing, so off hand 'hand' is open for other thing

Which is why it use Arm Slot, and not Off hand Slot 

Your point is irrelevant. It isn't wielded in the hand, as you yourself noted, so anything that requires something be in your hand doesn't work with Wrist Razors. Period.

If you don't want advice based on the actual rules, you are in the wrong forum.
Wrist Razors are great for the archer who wants to shoot, but still threaten for OAs.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />So it's either:
1) Gauntlet Axe & Drawven Thrower Battle Axe (Gauntlet Axe costs a feat)
2) Battleaxe & Handaxe
3) Rapier & Dagger
4) Short Sword & Farbond Rapier
5) Drawven Thrower Double Axe (1d10s both sides)
6) Farbond Double Sword (1d6s, +1 AC, costs a feat)



There is no reason you need to make any of the attacks with your main hand, so you make all three attacks with the off hand, save a magic item and go

7) Dagger
8) Handaxe
9) Farbond shortsword
10) Drawven Thrower Gauntlet axe

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />So it's either:
1) Gauntlet Axe & Drawven Thrower Battle Axe (Gauntlet Axe costs a feat)
2) Battleaxe & Handaxe
3) Rapier & Dagger
4) Short Sword & Farbond Rapier
5) Drawven Thrower Double Axe (1d10s both sides)
6) Farbond Double Sword (1d6s, +1 AC, costs a feat)



There is no reason you need to make any of the attacks with your main hand, so you make all three attacks with the off hand, save a magic item and go

7) Dagger
8) Handaxe
9) Farbond shortsword
10) Drawven Thrower Gauntlet axe



True but in heroic you might prefer having a larger die for your main hand attacks and not limiting your sole weapon enchantment. If you're going light blade, which you most likely should, I don't know how happy you'd be doing MBAs with a dagger early on. Most likely you wouldn't mind throwing something large (Farbond rapier) and then going at it with a short sword for the rest perhaps. Even later on you'd still probably appreciate doing your attacks between a dagger and shortsword/rapier rather than just a dagger.

10) Drawven Thrower Gauntlet axe



I just imagined like Voltron using Rocket Punch
Wrist Razors are great for the archer who wants to shoot, but still threaten for OAs.


Not really, given that that archer needs to waste a feat on melee traning, if he wants to hit at all, an even if he does, it's quite likely to suck even with Wrist Razors.

Wrist Razors are there for the Shielding Blade enchantment ;)
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />So it's either:
1) Gauntlet Axe & Drawven Thrower Battle Axe (Gauntlet Axe costs a feat)
2) Battleaxe & Handaxe
3) Rapier & Dagger
4) Short Sword & Farbond Rapier
5) Drawven Thrower Double Axe (1d10s both sides)
6) Farbond Double Sword (1d6s, +1 AC, costs a feat)



There is no reason you need to make any of the attacks with your main hand, so you make all three attacks with the off hand, save a magic item and go

7) Dagger
8) Handaxe
9) Farbond shortsword
10) Drawven Thrower Gauntlet axe



True but in heroic you might prefer having a larger die for your main hand attacks and not limiting your sole weapon enchantment. If you're going light blade, which you most likely should, I don't know how happy you'd be doing MBAs with a dagger early on. Most likely you wouldn't mind throwing something large (Farbond rapier) and then going at it with a short sword for the rest perhaps. Even later on you'd still probably appreciate doing your attacks between a dagger and shortsword/rapier rather than just a dagger.

the difrence in avarage damage bettwen a d4 and d8 is only around 2 ( a little more due to crits ).
so a +1 dagger vs +0 rapier is 2 damage vs 1 damage and 1 attack.
 I'd take the dagger
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />So it's either:
1) Gauntlet Axe & Drawven Thrower Battle Axe (Gauntlet Axe costs a feat)
2) Battleaxe & Handaxe
3) Rapier & Dagger
4) Short Sword & Farbond Rapier
5) Drawven Thrower Double Axe (1d10s both sides)
6) Farbond Double Sword (1d6s, +1 AC, costs a feat)



There is no reason you need to make any of the attacks with your main hand, so you make all three attacks with the off hand, save a magic item and go

7) Dagger
8) Handaxe
9) Farbond shortsword
10) Drawven Thrower Gauntlet axe



True but in heroic you might prefer having a larger die for your main hand attacks and not limiting your sole weapon enchantment. If you're going light blade, which you most likely should, I don't know how happy you'd be doing MBAs with a dagger early on. Most likely you wouldn't mind throwing something large (Farbond rapier) and then going at it with a short sword for the rest perhaps. Even later on you'd still probably appreciate doing your attacks between a dagger and shortsword/rapier rather than just a dagger.

the difrence in avarage damage bettwen a d4 and d8 is only around 2 ( a little more due to crits ).
so a +1 dagger vs +0 rapier is 2 damage vs 1 damage and 1 attack.
 I'd take the dagger


The difference is also 4 damage in epic. The problem is that I couldn't think of a good reason why you wouldn't take it unless you were committed to keeping costs low, it's not as if you have anything better to put in the other hand as a scout.
The trouble with using a throwing enchantment is that you're not using a damage enchantment.  You might be better off, for instance, with a Frost Dagger/Frost Rapier combo than a Farbond Rapier/Whatever shortsword.  The damage hit is minimal in terms of [W], but your weapon enchantment is a very high cost to pay for something like this.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Wrist Razors are great for the archer who wants to shoot, but still threaten for OAs.


Not really, given that that archer needs to waste a feat on melee traning, if he wants to hit at all, an even if he does, it's quite likely to suck even with Wrist Razors.

Wrist Razors are there for the Shielding Blade enchantment ;)


You mean you don't wear Bracers of Archery or IAoPs?
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Wrist Razors are great for the archer who wants to shoot, but still threaten for OAs.


Not really, given that that archer needs to waste a feat on melee traning, if he wants to hit at all, an even if he does, it's quite likely to suck even with Wrist Razors.

Wrist Razors are there for the Shielding Blade enchantment ;)



Well - the key point in my mind is that they threaten, more so than they are actually any good with it :P
Wrist Razors are great for the archer who wants to shoot, but still threaten for OAs.


Not really, given that that archer needs to waste a feat on melee traning, if he wants to hit at all, an even if he does, it's quite likely to suck even with Wrist Razors.

Wrist Razors are there for the Shielding Blade enchantment ;)


You mean you don't wear Bracers of Archery or IAoPs?


*assuming you can get you Item Bonus elsewhere, natch.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
natch.


"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Wrist Razors are great for the archer who wants to shoot, but still threaten for OAs.


Not really, given that that archer needs to waste a feat on melee traning, if he wants to hit at all, an even if he does, it's quite likely to suck even with Wrist Razors.



Or fill the least important item slot with Babau Gauntlets.
Still gonna suck unless you're using Inherent Bonuses/can afford at-level magic razors in addition to your radiant bow and an expertise that covers it.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Well, there are viable light blade throwing "Archer" Ranger variants. The item bonus problem remains, tho, if you don't want to go a certain route.
Thri-kreen?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Thri-kreen?



Talking to me, mello?

No, i had Shadar-Kai in mind. 
Thri-kreen?

Talking to me, mello?

No, i had Shadar-Kai in mind. 

Not specificly.

Thri-kreen have a feat that let's them hold and throw a dagger in thier "other" hands.  I don't remember the specific wording, but it might allow you to use the gouge without worring about the gauntlet axe.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Thri-kreen?

Talking to me, mello?

No, i had Shadar-Kai in mind. 

Not specificly.

Thri-kreen have a feat that let's them hold and throw a dagger in thier "other" hands.  I don't remember the specific wording, but it might allow you to use the gouge without worring about the gauntlet axe.

I bet that does fun stuff to the builder.